=== Let's Drone Out — Episode 211 ===
Title: LDO 211 - Pawel Spychalski
Recorded: 2019-09-12
Hosts: Andy, Jack "Brightontillifly" Nash, Wayne "CurryKitten" Andrews, Neil "NJ Tech" Jones, Andrew "Frank" Hyams
Guest(s): Paweł "DzikuVx" Spychalski
Total audience: 2,286
Platforms: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsHQwBd1GNA); SoundCloud (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/681354293-letsdroneout-ldo-211-pawel-spychalski.mp3)
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Guest https://www.youtube.com/user/dzikuvx

[0.0] AndyRC: Hello and you're listening to the best drone podcast out there. Let's drone out.
[4.48] AndyRC: We would like to thank all of our Patreons including
[8.24] AndyRC: Mikey Dredd as well as Art Faulkner and
[13.2] Jack: That's it. We've only got two out of the four twelve dollar Patreons
[19.36] Jack: who would help pay for the editing for this train wreck of a show.
[24.24] Jack: If you want to get your name read out please donate
[28.0] Jack: to patreon.com forward slash Let's Drone Out.
[63.12] Jack: Hello and welcome to another fantastic episode of Let's Drone Out.
[71.28] Jack: The best UK podcast on drones because I think we're the only one.
[77.6] Jack: Tonight we are, tonight we are joined by a special guest, Pawel Stokhowski.
[89.6] AndyRC: He says that brilliantly Jack. You have like a shorter version that we can all,
[98.32] AndyRC: you know like a nickname like. You just go with Pavel, that's not Pavel.
[103.44] Paweł: Just go with Pavel, it will be great. It will be really great. My nickname is
[107.6] Paweł: equally hard to pronounce for native English speakers so don't bother.
[112.08] Jack: We're also joined by Currykin. Hello. We also have the return of,
[120.64] Jack: I don't know, he looks familiar but I'm not too sure who he is. We are joined by NJ Tech.
[128.32] Jack: Hello, yes been some time. I've had to sign an agreement not to mention Sophie Ellis-Bekster.
[137.12] NJ: Well you've already done it. Are you going to be back for the winter? Yes, yes and no.
[145.92] Jack: Do you still even like drones or are you all about Rocket League now?
[150.8] NJ: No, of course I love drones. I love both. I love both with not equal measure. I
[156.96] NJ: definitely love drones more. Yeah I've put a video back up. It's probably not reached everyone
[164.0] NJ: because YouTube does that thing where you can hit the bell icon and it's still beside that,
[169.12] NJ: no this person doesn't watch you anymore. So I don't know if people are aware but yes I have
[173.44] NJ: uploaded a video and I will be continuing to upload more videos and crack on with various
[178.4] NJ: reviews and bits. So yes I'm back. No I haven't disappeared from the hobby. I'm very happy to be
[184.72] NJ: fine again and it's really wonderful people. Do you want to shout out your YouTube channel
[190.48] NJ: for any listeners? NJ Tech, not the computer one because there's two NJ Tech channels out there
[197.44] AndyRC: and I think one of them is software stuff. It's NJ Space Tech or www.youtube.com forward slash
[210.88] NJ: Neil Jones guitar. That's the other way that you can also get there. Or just type in the
[218.8] NJ: sexiest man that's kind of into FPV. I am into FPV. I've just had to work owned me for the last few
[228.8] AndyRC: months. I think it's healthy to have a break from it as well. It must be feel a bit refreshing
[236.24] NJ: actually. Yeah it was good. I didn't feel like I fell off the bike too much when I went out
[243.04] NJ: flying the other day which was nice. Still got the buzz, still enjoyed it. Still really happy to be
[249.52] NJ: getting back into flying. I know this is probably bad timing in terms of the weather and you know
[254.72] AndyRC: the way things are going to go. Not at all. It has rained all year. Yeah that's true. Although it's
[261.12] NJ: actually it was nice today. We had sunshine. It was very windy but we had lots of sunshine down
[265.84] AndyRC: here. This is a problem with the wind. Toothpicks are all the rage and they don't do well in the
[274.8] AndyRC: wind. So that's the problem I've been having. It's like yeah it's sunny today but if I fly it
[281.52] AndyRC: is that a fair representation of how it actually performs because there's a 50 mile per hour wind.
[287.44] Jack: So that's why I've been struggling. Right let me just finish the intro.
[292.48] Jack: Right we were also joined by Andy RC. Good evening everyone. My little pet Tony.
[300.32] Jack: How do? Or shall I say my what are those meerkats names again? My Sergio.
[307.44] Jack: No. Sergey or Alexander.
[315.92] Jack: Who knows. They're Russian meerkats anyway. I did have to google it.
[320.24] Jack: And he's not stroking himself. He has actually got a dog there. And I am Jack also known as
[328.16] Jack: Bright Until I Fly and you're listening to Let's Drone Out. Right so NJ I know you've been gone
[333.68] Jack: a while right but there's these weird foam triangles right that look like this.
[341.2] Jack: Yeah this lie with only one propeller. I know it is crazy. And you can put like drone flight
[353.76] Jack: controllers in them. Right. But you have to flash them with this magic stuff. This is a brilliant
[362.88] NJ: snickaway. Keep going. I want to know where he's going with this as well. He's getting there.
[370.08] Jack: And you can put GPS on it and everything and you have to flash this software called iNav.
[379.68] Jack: I've heard the name once or twice. Yeah and then it does some magic things man.
[387.6] Jack: And the airplane crashes to the ground. Yeah if you've got all flies upside down really well.
[395.76] Jack: And it was made by a guy called Constantine I think. Yep. And we've got one of your developer
[405.84] Paweł: aren't you Val? Yes I'm a software developer. Of iNav. That's my day job. Yeah actually that's
[412.24] Paweł: my day job. I'm a software developer. And sometimes from time to time also in the evening
[417.12] Paweł: doing iNav and other stuff that's not that popular as iNav. But please donate to iNav.
[426.08] Jack: It is life-changing and a lot of fun. And like pal you have a YouTube channel. How did you get
[439.04] Paweł: into the RC hobby? That's kind of because like five years ago I decided it's time for me to get
[447.92] Paweł: a drone. So I got the cheapest crap I found on the Amazon like, come on, burst motors. And half a
[454.48] Paweł: year I decided that maybe I should build myself. I've been building stuff almost all my life. And
[460.16] Paweł: then one step to the other I got this. A few months later I decided it's time for me to build
[467.12] Paweł: my iReplane and so on and so on. And this is let's say my coincidence. I mean the hobby by pure
[472.8] Paweł: coincidence. Because it happened only like four years ago. So it's really like a very very short time.
[480.88] Jack: So yeah I've used your videos that you've been very helpful especially with the iNav auto tune
[490.64] Jack: and the servo trim as well. You know not realizing that you have to land with auto trim still on
[500.32] Jack: and it will save if you disarm. You can always read the documentation which does not exist.
[508.32] Curry: Yeah no one it doesn't it doesn't keep up. That did exist actually about auto trim because I was
[515.36] Curry: asking Lee about it and I said it's not documented. I looked at the site again I said oh it is now
[520.72] Paweł: you have to land with it on. No I think for like two years now the iNav wiki has the documentation
[527.84] Paweł: for most of the of the most but truth to be told people usually do not read the documentation.
[533.6] Paweł: Especially documentation. I know because I'm not reading documentation. No I yeah I like learning
[540.4] Jack: it by osmosis. I mean I think a lot of the iNav wing was covered documentation wise by the
[548.48] Jack: rag the nuts off guy. I think he done quite a bit of the documentation.
[554.56] Paweł: Yeah it's a original series it's quite good yes. But yeah. And painless of course. I think he was
[562.32] Paweł: the first big channel that started doing materials about the iNav for three four years. No how
[569.68] Paweł: how old is iNav? Three years? I think something something like three years I think. I will search
[577.84] AndyRC: out. Probably Lee that's the biggest channel out wouldn't it be that covers iNav the most?
[587.2] Curry: Yeah probably. Yeah. I can look it up hang on. Oh I had a question of of Pavel actually because I
[594.96] Curry: watched I was quite interested to watch your video about where's the money go. Where you sort of
[600.72] Curry: track down sort of consumer paying the money to retailers. Retailers paying manufacturers
[607.28] Curry: and when it comes down to like the software and especially the software developers getting tiny
[611.36] Curry: little trickles of it. Which is kind of kind of the way it goes in open source development I guess
[617.2] Curry: for most people that are sort of hobbying. Yes yes yes. I was interested because there wasn't
[622.48] Curry: really a conclusion there in terms of what do you think the way forward is. Because I think there's
[628.0] Curry: always going to be a certain amount of people that will be happy to do it as a hobby and share the
[635.68] Curry: code for other people to do it and sort of go on that way. Because the other option seems to be
[641.28] Curry: taking it as a commercial endeavor like sort of flight one or something and having your own
[646.56] Curry: boards and stuff if people want to make money out of it. What you're taking away to go?
[652.72] Paweł: It all depends how you really understand the the open source project and what the developers are
[658.48] Paweł: doing. Because from my perspective I love develop. I'm a programmer of my life. I'm developing
[664.72] Paweł: software all my life and the fact that I can put a code into something like this magical board and
[670.96] Paweł: it does some cool stuff. It's really like very fulfilling for me. And as long as I can only like
[676.88] Paweł: when I have some willingness to do something then I just code and it's super cool. No problem as I
[683.68] Paweł: talk. But I think I don't know a year maybe a year and a half ago the project called INAF got
[691.84] Paweł: into a state that it's really no longer a pure hobby grade software created by one guy because he
[700.4] Paweł: likes it. Users started to expect some kind of support to solve their problems and started to
[708.8] Paweł: ask for features and so on and so on and so on and so on. If the developers that are in the project
[715.44] Paweł: called INAF would spend as much time as the user base expect them because they think that
[722.4] Paweł: come on you like programming why don't you program this then it stops being pretty a hobby. It starts
[727.68] Paweł: to be almost like a job that you are not paid off. What I do usually I have those phases where I
[736.48] Paweł: really do stuff for INAF like last two weeks and probably two next weeks. I'm really like developing
[743.12] Paweł: a lot but then probably I will get tired and I will retire from INAF for a quarter few months.
[749.44] Paweł: Nobody knows for how long because it's not my job. It's not my job to do stuff for INAF and
[757.44] Paweł: INAF cannot hire developers to fix bugs when the bugs are appearing. It only relies on the goodwill
[764.96] Paweł: of the guys that are helping to develop the project. So it really depends how you look at it.
[771.52] Paweł: If this is only a hobby a way to spend a pleasurable evening because we developers sometimes spend a
[779.04] Paweł: pleasurable evening writing the code then it's fine but if you understand this as a business
[786.96] Paweł: or really big project that is popular in the community then it's almost like a work and
[793.44] Curry: it's not the same anymore. I suppose my question is where's it going to go? Is it the fact that
[803.68] Curry: it's become big enough that it's like sort of commercial quality either someone has to
[812.88] Curry: take it on and pump a load of money into it or what happens? Do the developers kind of
[817.68] Curry: get tired of doing it or the user base is frustrated because they're not getting the
[822.72] Curry: fixes they want because of course no one wants to do it all for free or what happens?
[828.96] Paweł: The whole market that is interested in paid software is extremely small worldwide. It's
[835.84] Paweł: like a few thousand people maybe. From where I see it it's impossible to have a good running
[843.52] Paweł: business that will sustain itself and hire two or three developers doing stuff all the time
[849.12] Paweł: if you are not selling a hardware because look what are the all the projects that are
[854.56] Paweł: commercial right now what they are already selling. If you buy the eagle tree what do you buy?
[860.4] Paweł: Software or hardware? You buy hardware and by coincidence you also get the software.
[867.52] Paweł: The same goes with flight one the pix hulk yeah okay the pixel is slightly different because
[874.72] Paweł: they got commercial sponsorship back over the years. What else? DGI. You buy DGI hardware not
[881.6] Paweł: the DGI software. Some time ago I made a poll if people are willing to pay for a special version
[888.64] Paweł: of INAF or mobile configurator. People were not interested so there is not enough money in the
[895.84] Paweł: hobby in this potential niche to convert this into a project that lives only based on the software
[903.84] AndyRC: itself. It's just too small. So how does beta flight do it then because they seem to have
[912.32] AndyRC: too many releases and not too many is the wrong term but they have like there seems to be a new
[919.2] AndyRC: release every other few weeks. So how is their model different than the INAF?
[926.64] AndyRC: You mean beta flight right?
[934.0] Paweł: I'm not in the inner circle of the beta flight so I cannot speak for them what's happening inside
[940.56] Paweł: but from what I know the amount of money in beta flight as a software development
[945.84] Paweł: project is more or less the same as in INAF not existent. With the beta flight it's slightly
[952.0] Paweł: different because beta flight on one hand has a simpler let's say simple role. People do not expect
[963.52] Paweł: beta flight to run on everything. People expect beta flight to run only from three to let's say
[969.68] Paweł: seven inch watts and it's great. And also this is probably right now the most popular let's say
[977.76] Paweł: area of the RC hobby people love flying meadrops. So not only a lot of people are buying hardware
[985.36] Paweł: but a lot of people are building this kind of quads it's relatively simple and the fact that
[992.32] Paweł: they are releasing something does not mean that they are paid for this. You found the back then
[998.48] Paweł: let's fix the back let's make a release everybody's happy. But I expect maybe there is some more
[1005.92] Paweł: maybe few hundred bucks yearly in the beta flight more than the INAF. Not that the INAF has
[1011.52] Paweł: hundreds of bucks because that's also not true but there is also no money. The projects open source
[1017.2] AndyRC: projects are underfunded just like that. So maybe it could be the beta flight get more donations
[1024.56] AndyRC: than perhaps just because it's more of a popular thing. It's still what I know most of the developers
[1031.92] Paweł: of the beta flight are just doing this on a hobby base because this is this is this is cool. They
[1036.56] Paweł: know how to make a quad fly better so they make the quad fly better. This is only my let's say
[1042.56] Paweł: suspicion over there. And if I recall correctly right now beta flight releases in half year cycle
[1051.84] Paweł: they released 4.0 half a year ago now they are preparing to release 4.1. So it's not that they
[1059.44] Paweł: are really like releasing everything and and the development is not that fast. Also because the
[1065.44] Paweł: user base of the beta flight is higher it's there's it's more probable that also they will find a
[1071.44] Paweł: developer that is willing to do some work for the project. It's all an effect of the scale.
[1077.52] Jack: Yeah also also like at the at the beginning they're only there was clean flight and then
[1084.8] Jack: uh beta or beta in the beginning was multi-way. Well yeah yeah yeah all right well yeah in the
[1091.28] Jack: beginning I mean there was base flight there was KK2 there was you know okay but like base flight
[1100.4] AndyRC: Jack's just saying beta flight so that because because that's how NJ says it and he wants him
[1105.76] Jack: on next week. I can't believe he's back oh look how white those teeth are god damn I swear to god
[1120.08] AndyRC: you could make me gay. He doesn't he doesn't like them either they're just like that you know they
[1126.08] AndyRC: naturally grew out without anxiety amazing. Spising the amount of coffee I drink actually.
[1140.16] Jack: So anyway um there was you know then it forked a clean fly and then uh beta flight was a way of
[1150.16] Jack: like having a little sandbox and testing all the the uh push requests or pull requests
[1157.36] Jack: and I always get those two mixed up and and and that was that at the beginning and then
[1164.0] Jack: it kind of got a hell of a lot of traction because of the amount of work that um the uh Boris B did
[1171.12] Jack: really he he put he put a hell of a lot and of of like you know sort of work he would feverishly
[1180.0] Jack: work day day and night and then put out a load of releases and um and then you know like only
[1188.08] Jack: only now sort of like you know I now have completed about a year or two ago completed its
[1196.88] Jack: drone sort of uh side and then really started to pick up the uh fixed wing is that right um no
[1207.36] Paweł: a kind of was formed from clean flight more in the same period of time the the beta flight was
[1213.6] Paweł: formed for uh clean flight and the flying wing airplane support in let's say almost not change
[1223.12] Paweł: basic way uh is there really from the beginning because all of that already existed in the base
[1232.08] Paweł: flight all of that already existed on the on the clean flight only Constantine back in the I think
[1239.12] Paweł: it was 2016 or 2015 in the event started refining this refining this but the project and the making
[1248.16] Paweł: this better for the airplanes uh actually yeah something like uh last year ago I think with 2.0
[1256.64] Paweł: with the rewritten mixer and the better graphical interface to set up mixer and things like that
[1262.64] Paweł: what we are gradually refining the product at making this better blah blah blah blah blah blah
[1269.36] Paweł: and catching up a better flight and some of the features because uh let's be honest right now
[1274.48] Paweł: meta flight is the the software you have to look at when you want features and flight performers
[1281.76] Paweł: for the quads not only mini quads but for the quads so I will not let's say exaggerate when I
[1289.28] Paweł: say that we get from meta flight a lot because both projects are open source under the same license
[1296.08] Paweł: we just take whatever we want from their coat and they take whatever they want from our coat
[1301.6] Paweł: not that they they take a lot but it's always there anyone can take whatever whatever they want
[1308.24] Jack: um yeah because I remember like you know when I first started using iNav I mean there you would
[1316.56] Jack: calibrate your um board and you wouldn't be able to tell which axis you've you've done you'd have to
[1324.24] Jack: rhythmically follow the wiki and everything yeah well good old times good old times let's say but
[1332.48] Paweł: this is this is always the problem that iNav has a higher entry level because you have to
[1339.04] Paweł: set up much more things and the setup of the things is much harder and we have slightly
[1345.52] Paweł: less developers or the smaller user base so it's harder for us to find developers um this is why
[1352.72] Paweł: very often the development base is not really that rapid as we would like for example we still
[1359.28] Paweł: do not have a good support for smart audio 2.1 because we don't have time we don't have hardware
[1366.24] Paweł: and we don't have let's say immediate need to to finally patch it in the in the correct way
[1372.72] Jack: um who who out of us uses uh iNav I mean I know I've downloaded iNav um just to take a look at it
[1385.2] AndyRC: and um yeah it's a it's surprising to me um because it just looks so similar to
[1393.36] AndyRC: betaflight I assumed they were more closely connected um than than it then it appears to be
[1401.2] AndyRC: but uh essentially you're just sharing the interface because it's both open source and
[1408.16] AndyRC: it's a sort of interface that people are familiar with so you can sort of cross over I guess it's
[1415.04] Paweł: the idea of going with that interface we really share a lot with betaflight key in flight and
[1421.36] Paweł: even base flight you always have to remember about base flight because all the projects originated
[1426.96] Paweł: from the same code base they originated from the rewritten multi-way which was the back then called
[1433.2] Paweł: the base flight configurator internals of all three three I'm not sure if you actually recount
[1440.08] Paweł: the clean flight as a separate project right now uh the interface is the the interface that the
[1446.72] Paweł: backbone of the software is more or less the same the film works share the same libraries they
[1452.48] Paweł: share the same CPUs a lot of things are similar but because come on that I would if I would have
[1458.48] Paweł: to guess like 50 percent of the code base is exactly the same in both projects because they
[1463.68] Paweł: originally originally from the same the same uh the same place only they diverged from the beginning
[1470.0] Paweł: and they started let's say have a different purpose when betaflight always concentrated or
[1477.2] Paweł: the miniquets while enough concentrated in the beginning on the on the retro to home waypoints
[1484.64] Paweł: and slightly better navigation and then there was the aeroplane phase multi-rotor catch-up from
[1491.76] AndyRC: betaflight and so on and so on and so on so um from from a from like a multi-rotor perspective
[1500.24] AndyRC: this has always interested me because um I think one of the reasons that uh people like get out of
[1510.4] AndyRC: multi-rotors is because there's no redundancy you know there's no flip a switch if I get into
[1517.92] AndyRC: trouble and gps kicks in and it just loiters there and inav has the possibility to do that
[1525.76] AndyRC: so that's what interested me about inav so are there um from from what I hear you know um the
[1536.08] AndyRC: the acro performance in inav isn't on par with betaflight is that fair to say and is it sort of
[1544.16] AndyRC: um it is it a uh something that a direction that inav would go into to try to show
[1555.2] Paweł: you want my honest opinion I will never say that inav is actually on the same level of performance
[1562.88] Paweł: uh in the miniquets world as the betaflight is but it's not true but I currently own like
[1570.72] Paweł: one two three four five five maybe six mini quads if you count seven inches seven inches
[1576.48] Paweł: and and the 3d printed tricopter yeah yeah I'm not flying I'm not even counting that
[1582.64] Paweł: guess how many of those quads inav enough uh powers and I'm flying them freestyle
[1589.92] Paweł: racing stuff like that not only I some of them even don't have gps it's one only one because
[1597.84] Paweł: uh of the hardware on this one is not supported by the inav but that's all if I would have to
[1606.72] Paweł: guess right now the acro performance of inav if you tune it up correctly because you have to tune
[1612.96] Paweł: inav uh the envelope of hardware for inav is much much wider than for betaflight but if you tune it
[1620.88] Paweł: by experimenting on watching some of my videos and stuff like that the performance is some
[1627.6] Paweł: were on the betaflight 3.5 level it's not 4.0 because we lack the dynamic filtering
[1636.64] Paweł: uh but if we would add the dynamic filtering which I'm quite often thinking maybe I should
[1642.56] Paweł: report it finally then the performance would not be really that difference there is a performance
[1648.08] Paweł: difference they behave slightly slightly different uh but if you go to my channel and watch some of
[1654.96] Paweł: the flight videos I publish from time to time all of those were recorded with eye efforts pretty
[1662.0] Paweł: I'm not the best pilot in the world but the software does its job this episode was recorded
[1668.32] Frank: in front of a live online audience downloaded and edited to make sense when it played audio only
[1673.68] Frank: censored to please the itunes people hosted on the internet forwarded through to your podcast
[1677.76] Frank: provider downloaded playing on your device and is now playing in your ears all thanks to our
[1683.28] Frank: patreons consider joining them and you'll also get other online benefits find out more at patreon.com
[1689.92] Curry: forward slash let's drone out what do you think of um and did this come from inav did betaflight
[1697.2] Curry: get their gps they call it kind of rescue mode yes and this is the rescue mode the crash towards
[1703.92] Curry: yourself is what I like to call it did did this come from inav or did betaflight dream it up by
[1708.56] Paweł: themselves no they they developed this by themselves this is 100 percent they're doing
[1714.96] Paweł: which is like the the name says it's a rescue if you really got into a trouble then you the quad
[1721.2] Paweł: will probably return home somehow and then drop close to you yes and this works great in that
[1727.92] AndyRC: that aspect it almost seems a shame that um the the two don't sort of like from a developer
[1744.72] AndyRC: perspective come together because I just love to see a uh an entire package where you have that gps
[1753.68] AndyRC: redundancy but then you've got the the flight performance of betaflight and then you could
[1761.84] AndyRC: you you could have the the full deal you know this this so what are we looking at um this
[1771.2] Paweł: is a seven incher if I would replace the motors with slightly stronger version this would be
[1776.16] Paweł: pretty nice seven inch with full return to home and night operations capability but no um like I
[1782.32] Paweł: said you have to tune enough you have to do all the in theory it is possible for us to use exactly
[1791.68] Paweł: the same but very close defaults that betaflight uses this is possible we the p values in both
[1799.52] Paweł: softwares can be set to exactly the same value i can be set to exactly those same values the d and
[1806.88] Paweł: fit forward let's say slightly slightly different story you really have to tune d and fit forward
[1812.64] Paweł: okay there's no fit forward in the ina but the filters the basic filters are more or less the
[1817.36] Paweł: same if we would apply then it would fly mini quads just as fine as betaflight without any extra tuning
[1826.72] Paweł: at least for majority of the users but we cannot do it uh people fly 10 inches 12 inches people
[1833.76] Paweł: really fly a very wide uh i understand and they put really extremely extremely strange things into
[1843.52] Paweł: the air so we are not even pretending that uh you just flash and and take it to for a spin and it will
[1850.56] Paweł: work i i maybe if i will have time for the next release of i enough i will implement a feature
[1860.56] Paweł: that will have a possibility to have different defaults because there is idea how to more or less
[1867.28] Paweł: do it maybe this will make the whole process simpler but still the i enough has in the
[1871.76] Paweł: configurator the whole section called presets when you just more or less choose your type of
[1876.88] Paweł: the uav and drone or and click apply presets and the preset is applied so then at least filtering
[1883.36] Paweł: and pizza are more or less to the class more or less you then still have to tune it yeah yeah no
[1892.0] Jack: no practical that's great i i done my s800 with the presets and it flew beautifully right off the
[1899.2] Jack: bat i was i was really impressed well because the defaults are useless in i enough i will honestly
[1911.52] Paweł: say it the default values of the pit gains and the filtering is really absolutely nothing good
[1918.96] Paweł: flies flies good on those values because we don't know what users will be flying with will it be a
[1926.08] Paweł: big small heavy light three inches seven inches we have absolutely no idea so we just do not set
[1935.36] Paweł: defaults for a specific class and this is absolutely the reason majority of users
[1941.04] Paweł: thinks that after flashing kind of and taking into the area observing how crappy it flies say
[1946.4] Paweł: that i enough is crappy software because then that the defaults are crappy that's all what would you
[1953.2] Paweł: recommend doing trim first then tune make it not on the on the flying wings and i replace in general
[1962.56] Paweł: like on monday i published a video of the full process that means they set up the center of
[1968.16] Paweł: gravity well then set up rates auto tune auto trim no auto trim auto tune and then manually
[1976.48] Paweł: improve the tune this is this is the way with the multirotors go to the presets apply the
[1983.2] Paweł: preset that you think is closer to what you fly hopefully for the next release we will update the
[1989.52] Paweł: the presets that maybe put some more over there and unfortunately you have to learn how to at
[1996.72] Paweł: least basically tune your multirotor because without that it's impossible think think what
[2004.16] Paweł: happens when you flash a better flight on the three inch will it fly on defaults oh absolutely
[2011.28] AndyRC: no no it you arm it and it just flies the sky on its own exactly exactly it didn't used to do that
[2019.52] AndyRC: it's only since be a flight before it started doing that to be fair but what is what is interesting
[2025.84] AndyRC: and tony's is but is buggered off but um he uh flies x class but i think he's using
[2033.28] AndyRC: bit of flight jack if i'm not am i right yeah i think so yeah yeah so those are those are running
[2040.88] AndyRC: like um what are they 12 13 inch blades so um but but but you're absolutely right um yeah the the
[2053.52] AndyRC: three inch and below completely different pads completely different different
[2061.36] Paweł: different moment of inertia on the frame completely different frequencies of the noise from the motors
[2067.6] Paweł: completely different uh trust to moment of inertia right show because when we do trust to wait we
[2074.4] Paweł: simplify stuff incredibly how trust to wait is only like 10 percent of the story trust to inertia
[2082.24] Paweł: is more important moment of inertia and everything is completely different that defaults
[2088.08] Paweł: on the beta flight are that good for one year old quad and it works great you put yourself
[2096.64] Paweł: bigger motors i don't have example oh no there's for example oh this thing this thing had different
[2106.08] Paweł: motors uh 2306 i replaced the motors with 2208 which has like 40 more torque and they
[2117.92] Paweł: completely had to return it defaults were absolutely not working the p gains had to
[2122.8] Paweł: be lower by 40 percent to make distinct flying the defaults are only good on the stuff that you
[2131.6] AndyRC: design the side that defaults for yeah which in beta flight is essentially a five inch
[2139.68] AndyRC: or freestyle copter from what i experienced something like that yeah even if you would
[2146.8] Paweł: put defaults on the really current up to date really torquey powerful five inch chair
[2153.28] Paweł: it still would fly crappy and over oscillate because the current motors have
[2158.4] Paweł: whoa that much torque than the one year old generation of motors so what you're saying is
[2165.76] AndyRC: that then with inav that you can you probably can get acro close to be close close not not
[2174.48] AndyRC: quite but close that's interesting yeah because because that's something that i that's an avenue
[2179.44] AndyRC: i want to go down with um i recently um tried it with mission planner because there's been a sort
[2187.04] AndyRC: of resurgence with arju pilot and arju copter ever since it moved to that shivios am i saying
[2195.36] AndyRC: that right shivios um so um yeah and someone came up with a set of defaults for like a 250 mini quad
[2204.88] AndyRC: and yeah it wasn't bad and you could flick a switch and uh you could be an acro flick a switch
[2211.6] AndyRC: and then it it returns to home and uh yeah that's that that's the kind of thing i think beginners
[2218.24] AndyRC: need um you know if if they want to go straight to a mini quad um so so that's sort of what i'm
[2226.72] AndyRC: interested in with with inav um rather than rather than the the wing stuff although um planes you
[2234.56] AndyRC: know is is what i've done the majority of my life i just don't have the space for planes
[2240.72] AndyRC: otherwise every my channel would just be all plane stuff i flew i flew a um i flew a bixler
[2250.64] AndyRC: three on tuesday with fpv set up and everything and it was uh yeah i really it was it was awesome
[2258.64] AndyRC: yeah phil if you're watching he let me fly his bixler and i'd never flown one before and yeah
[2265.44] Paweł: it was cool i liked it so no the the performance can be close but you have to let's say know what
[2272.72] Paweł: you are doing start from the presets we implemented in the configurator and then try to tune from
[2279.68] Curry: there and yeah you will get somewhere i suppose the question is looking at some of us who are
[2287.6] Curry: a bit lazy for tuning and i i hold my hands up hold heartedly because my lack of time means i
[2293.52] Curry: just want to go there and fly uh you know oh this is going to work i i mess with my p's and d's
[2299.12] Curry: but as soon as it's flying okay i'm like okay i'm going to fly this what do you think the possibilities
[2304.48] Curry: are having uh an auto tune that is good enough to get you into a really quite solid flying situation
[2312.0] Curry: on any size quad let's just define a solid um you won't sort of think oh it's oscillating or it's
[2320.88] Curry: making a noise basically it will just it will just fly nicely i mean one could say okay we could
[2327.68] Curry: spend an extra couple of hours tuning it and fine tuning again it absolutely is perfect but
[2334.16] Curry: something that would just be like this is this is fine pretty well out of the box that sort of
[2338.32] Paweł: solid i'm not sure if you remember when clean flight four-year-old clean flight there were
[2344.88] Paweł: some auto tunes there was a g tune there was something else tune it was kind of tuning stuff
[2351.76] Curry: i think i tried it and i remember trying it out and it was hilarious because you had the
[2357.36] Curry: cord just went i'm over here and it do this sort of thing for a while and then it would drift away
[2363.76] Curry: and you had to bring it back and there i managed to get it finished once and it was really bad
[2368.8] Paweł: there is really a lot of literature how to tune pit controllers there are
[2374.16] Paweł: mathematic equations you can read about those stuff i don't remember right now the names of
[2379.04] Paweł: all those algorithms but you if you know the oscillation frequency and then this happening
[2385.04] Paweł: then you can really tune it you can really tune it and i bet that if someone really had enough
[2390.96] Paweł: time and willingness to implement one of those scientifically proved methods of tuning
[2397.68] Paweł: of the quadcopter because quadcopter is really like it's every other machine you can control
[2403.04] Paweł: with pit controller pid controller it's not a different but you tune your pid controller
[2410.96] Paweł: while working that means it would have to let's let's say start doing those crazy stuff in the air
[2418.32] Paweł: for the learning algorithm to pick up the uh resonance frequency and then apply this apply
[2425.84] Paweł: this up so it will always look like something is happening if you move to one step too far then
[2431.92] Paweł: something exploded somewhere this is by the way exactly the the way how the autotune is working
[2438.24] Paweł: on the i replace it just compares your input with your output and you have to do stuff with the
[2445.36] Paweł: sticks for this to work and tries to match mainly fit forward mainly fit forward so your output
[2453.68] Paweł: matches the input but this works on flying wings because flying wings and airplanes in
[2458.8] Paweł: general have lot of built-in stability they will not flip over if you slightly mess your tune
[2466.0] Paweł: they will still fly only not as good but maybe someday someone but i really honestly doubt it
[2472.88] Paweł: the tuning of the quad is really simple you know it's really like if you know how to do it then
[2479.68] Paweł: it's simple of course if you're not very lazy no if you know how to do it because it takes like
[2485.92] AndyRC: 10 minutes i'll have to have a try of it it's something i've not tried but it's something
[2492.96] AndyRC: it's it's on the the to-do list it's just the problem is the to-do list is endless at the moment
[2499.84] Paweł: so yeah i know i know the feeling uh and again endless to-do list yeah so i'd really like to
[2506.88] AndyRC: check it out though so um yeah i've got i've got it in my i downloaded and installed it and i've
[2513.6] AndyRC: looked around and watched a few videos but that's about as far as i've gotten but uh i eventually
[2520.8] AndyRC: plan to to try and do what i did because uh when when when i uh got reunited with mission planner
[2529.28] AndyRC: it was a two-week endeavor to try and remember how everything worked and so it's like it's like
[2536.0] AndyRC: learning something new isn't it you know and then there's so much to look there's so much to learn
[2541.44] AndyRC: in this hobby in the first place where you know your brain is just full of stuff and i i need to
[2548.48] AndyRC: like delete some useless stuff to make some room for some i-nav things and then and then i'm ready
[2556.16] AndyRC: i think but um sorry to sort of go off topic because i know like we're coming close towards
[2562.96] AndyRC: the end um we we don't we don't have uh andrew slash frank to talk about this um but do any of
[2571.6] AndyRC: you guys have any insight on what's going on with the bmfa as i think the short version i saw was
[2579.44] Jack: don't register or something like that yeah don't register yeah you you were funny enough you were
[2586.08] Paweł: covering uh eu drone laws as well uh yes but from what i've heard you are leaving the european union
[2594.64] Paweł: so i don't care about you not any time soon yeah i doubt it will really happen now no uh so
[2608.48] Paweł: from what i've heard the the rules that you are planning are kind of similar to what will be
[2615.36] Paweł: happening in the european union but i don't know anything about the test you're supposed to be
[2619.52] AndyRC: taking so don't ask me yeah it was more it was more sort of to jack and don't register yeah it's still
[2628.48] Jack: being worked out i reckon the price is going to change and all this and that this is why i i
[2635.68] AndyRC: really struggle to to you know pay attention to any of this because it changes on like should have
[2642.56] Jack: got an email about it basically i got yeah yeah that that's how i know about it because
[2647.92] AndyRC: my friend phil actually said oh i got notified by the bmfa today about something about register
[2654.16] AndyRC: the registration thing i was like oh man it's like one minute it's a tragedy and the next
[2660.48] AndyRC: minute it's like oh everything's gonna be fine and then it's oh no and then oh brilliant and it's like
[2667.36] AndyRC: should do we just not pay attention to it until something actually happens because it seems like
[2674.32] AndyRC: you know we're just preparing for something that just hasn't been decided yet you know
[2681.2] AndyRC: just just seems strange um but yeah so that uh it's slightly off topic there but i just wanted
[2688.96] AndyRC: a fan of you guys now we needed andrew slash frank for that one really didn't we more more
[2695.52] AndyRC: in tune with that but uh i just thought i'd mention it because it's something that's going
[2699.52] AndyRC: on here in the uk bmfa is the the british model flying association so like that that
[2706.24] Paweł: i'm not sure what i think is it i think this is the situation currently in all the european
[2713.2] Paweł: union countries including great britain um because from what i know yeah the european union
[2722.72] Paweł: got those regulations out but for example the polish authorities because i'm from poland but
[2728.72] Paweł: i do not live in poland uh are only just planning to do something about this because there's the
[2735.04] Paweł: rules from from the above from the european union they're on the general direction and how it's
[2740.88] Paweł: going to look like in the end really depends on the on the national regulators with what kind of
[2746.8] AndyRC: the rules that each country will come up with yeah so when this uh posted in the chat uh a facebook
[2756.96] AndyRC: post i think uh to it so yeah we can all go and read that also someone has said nj's gone quiet
[2766.24] AndyRC: why is that it's been a game man is this is learning nj's learning now here it's just
[2773.84] NJ: yeah i'm just i'm this part of my absorbing phase where i reabsorb reabsorbed the now
[2779.52] NJ: and then i will have do you have a mess around with i now ben j no not something i messed around
[2788.72] NJ: with i did um when the gps thing became something people were testing in bait flight i did a bit of
[2796.8] NJ: that and got uh one of my quads still mounted up there but the gps got the return at home
[2801.36] NJ: and all those bits and bobs working but yeah i'd certainly like to see more of that developed on
[2808.88] NJ: or that developed four quads because it's uh it's useful and it's uh as as was mentioned there's no
[2815.2] NJ: real redundancy for mini quads but that is an offering shall we say that um would certainly
[2821.44] Curry: be useful for some people
[2832.24] Curry: i say it's great fun when you mess it up in your wing mine flew upside down instantly
[2836.24] Curry: because i'd managed to reverse servos in my radio but not to inav so from my
[2843.68] Curry: from my manual point of view please yes rookie yeah the rookie mistake but it's good it's making
[2850.8] Paweł: mistakes good for learning extremely popular mistakes uh on one of the polish um rc groups
[2859.6] Paweł: the topic of where to do the reverses on the service for i enough is popping up every month
[2864.72] Paweł: or something because the people really like try to do it all the way make the reverses in the in
[2869.84] Paweł: the radio and this always always ends very very badly yeah at least one decent thing is when you're
[2877.2] Curry: flying a wing and you're like you're in manual you'll take it up to 100 meters then you'll flick
[2882.08] Curry: a switch and if it turns upside down you've got loads of time to un flick the switch turn it back
[2887.04] Curry: over and land it's not quite like the fun stuff of quad flying trying a new mode i don't know about
[2892.64] Curry: you nj but i was kind of sweating the first time i i said let's do a gps rescue and see what happens
[2897.44] Curry: uh uh it's some some you know i'm not so fusion that it actually came back i kind of had some
[2905.68] NJ: i had some inadvertent training with things being reversed not by actually practicing it as such but
[2912.72] NJ: when i used to fly when all i did was fly rc helicopters and i started flying 3d
[2919.2] NJ: when you take a helicopter and you flip it upside down and you reverse the pitch on the blades
[2923.76] NJ: when the helicopter is actually upside down half the controls become reversed just by the
[2930.16] NJ: nature of the way the collective works so in order to fly in what's essentially rate mode
[2935.44] NJ: when you're upside down with the helicopter if the tail's away from you then uh pitch is correct
[2943.2] NJ: but ailerons are reversed so i had to learn to fly in that orientation and then if the helicopter
[2949.52] NJ: would swing around pitch would be incorrect but ailerons would be right it would basically always
[2954.72] NJ: change the way you had to control it so whenever i messed up and put something in wrong and gone
[2960.72] NJ: out and flown it i've been able to survive it but obviously that's a really expensive way to learn
[2965.28] NJ: how to do that because helicopters are expensive and you don't want to crash them um but yeah that
[2971.52] NJ: i know multiplies helicopters yeah yeah i've still got them sitting in the loft i will get
[2977.76] NJ: the mountain flying again one day but they look cool though they are there's nothing
[2984.88] NJ: especially electrics because they sound like jet engines anyway i don't know to me they just
[2989.28] Curry: dangerous whenever i i've only seen one at fpv meet and it was only a 450 size which you'd think
[2995.6] Curry: is quite small so he starts up and the rotor starts spinning and you can just feel everybody
[3000.4] NJ: moving back moving back it's like it's still it's still increasing it's the most intimidating
[3007.52] NJ: thing about the small helicopters is not the what makes them intimidating is actually the rpm of the
[3013.92] NJ: rotors because the larger heli i've got 700 size helicopter which is is just a monster and a 600
[3020.4] NJ: and they're both running but i think the 700 runs between 18 and 2100 rpms 600 millimeter carbon
[3029.04] Paweł: he's got a turbine blighter turbo yeah it's a turbo it sounds almost like a helicopter
[3039.12] Paweł: printer and it's it's 3d printed it's going to explode you want me to start this thing
[3044.64] Paweł: yes yes okay and turn the gain up on your mic uh let me find the radio i want to see mj fly
[3057.44] Paweł: um
[3059.44] Paweł: radio is powering
[3062.08] Jack: hang on let me find the light let me find i've got the link to you making that hang on let me
[3068.64] Paweł: grab that the turbo impeller no no no no no no no this is the v2 of the turbo this is like three
[3075.76] Jack: times bigger volume than something i showed before okay um i told you this guy's mad
[3090.62] Paweł: was that reliable to hear it yeah yeah pretty okay so yeah almost like a heli sounds like it's
[3104.46] Jack: gonna explode i hope not long and boring that is a great video like you've come on this show
[3115.66] Jack: i've just looked at your newest video long and boring dead
[3122.94] Jack: oh man it's long and boring watch it yeah i'll have to i'll have to don't bother it's boring
[3130.22] Jack: just like the name says oh no yeah i i i came i can't remember when i came across you but
[3139.18] Jack: like i've been subscribed for a while and you know you've got loads of different
[3143.98] Jack: projects and that how's the um f7 65 from matex because you've you've got that well i haven't got
[3152.78] Paweł: it board is and you've done it somewhere here no it's still well let's say it's there somewhere i
[3164.06] Paweł: have nowhere to put it right now the board itself really is looks amazing it's the most powerful
[3170.22] Paweł: board ever but it's slightly an overkill you really in majority of the cases don't need that
[3179.18] Paweł: much of the voltage stabilizers and the outputs and stuff like that maybe maybe i will upgrade
[3186.3] Paweł: one of my wings through this board maybe not i really have not decided yet three video switches
[3192.38] Paweł: on it as well isn't there no they're too oddly i think no but it's really a lot of different
[3201.02] Jack: stuff so no um it's also nice that someone i don't i don't know someone european on here
[3206.94] Jack: because you actually know what a little guider is as well i quite like that episode the they
[3213.1] Jack: they're so in in this country we've got like a grocery store supermarket we call them over here
[3222.46] Jack: and they sell little little chuck gliders and you chuck it and depending on which way you put the
[3227.42] Jack: wing yeah it either goes a distance or it will loop back to you and you catch it again yeah yeah
[3233.26] Jack: and um you you modified one of them i've got a friend called dan upton who made the the the
[3239.74] Jack: wings tilt i bought him a few of those so you yeah interesting hi talk motor and you just put
[3248.54] Paweł: i think you put uh uh flaps on didn't you no no no no that's a simple uh for channel motor
[3257.81] Paweł: the secondly the glider is waiting to be built this time with some more interesting capabilities
[3262.61] Paweł: like fpv and gps and the new matic board and stuff like that when like and the set the to-do
[3269.97] Jack: list is very very long yeah always too long have you have you got anything uh you can
[3276.13] Jack: to the latest with what you're working on next have you got like uh got a hint um exclusive
[3284.45] Paweł: maybe it's any one of you remembers my project pennies pennies pennies yeah i don't think this
[3291.01] Paweł: guy is very ldo project penis yeah yeah there's a video i think that's what ldo was originally
[3300.69] Paweł: called wasn't it before a proper name there's an atel uh project coming alone there's a v-tail
[3309.81] Paweł: project coming along multi-rotors based on this there's a bicopter which i'm building but is
[3315.73] Paweł: constantly failing and i cannot tune this thing there's this lead glider there will be a smaller
[3322.29] Paweł: racing wing there is um wait a second i will find the hardware
[3328.05] AndyRC: is that the david is that the david wendestall bicopter or is it one of you
[3336.32] Paweł: no it's my own 3d printed version well version i idea and there is this i don't know where i
[3344.4] Paweł: will finish but i always have it printed um it goes like this there's two servers on this
[3351.36] Paweł: and two flaps like this you put it on the drone connect the servers to the flight controller and
[3358.08] Paweł: when you pull the throttle down and start to float in the air it will move like that and give
[3363.76] Paweł: you small wings right then you open the throttle and it goes back up and fly again when so so a bit
[3374.72] AndyRC: like a bit like the osprey then in a way because that kind of does that right in opposite you know
[3381.52] AndyRC: the the v22 osprey the uh it's like um tilt tilt rotor now yeah but they tilt the whole wings or only
[3391.6] AndyRC: the no no no just just the rotors tilt on them yeah but it just seems like using a wing for
[3399.52] AndyRC: efficiency right or is that the idea to to use a way no rather to see what's gonna happen then
[3408.88] Paweł: how spectacular it is integrating there fair enough i thought there was a concept there but
[3416.24] Paweł: it was like i wonder what happens if i do this yeah exactly yes yes this is half of my doings
[3422.4] AndyRC: i wonder what's happened when i do this no concept no concept just yeah all right this this is a
[3428.4] Jack: thing i'll try that i like that right guys i think we've made up for the time that we started late i
[3436.16] Jack: believe so um wow thank you so much for coming on i hope you had a good time it was yeah it was
[3444.48] Paweł: quite pleasure level but yeah it was quite nice yep um we'll get we'll get enjoed to take his
[3450.32] Jack: stuff off next time that's the only way i can think of making it better um but yeah you guys
[3456.96] Jack: have been listening to lecture now thanks for all the patreons thanks for any donations guys
[3461.68] Jack: robert and your legends um hopefully we'll get andrew frank back if not the the the show will go
[3471.04] Jack: completely tits up um i am on in a little less than an hour at 10 to 11 i'm on thursday night
[3481.28] Jack: show playing eighties music i put the link in the chat and you've been listening to lecture
[3485.76] Jack: now you've been joined by uh paval pskowski pskowski uh uh daddy or curry kitten hello
[3495.04] Jack: goodbye no the sexy nj tech good to have you back buddy take care guys and everyone's favorite
[3504.4] Jack: disclaimer lord andy arcy good evening all and i've been bright until i fly remember donate to
[3511.92] Jack: our patreon and donate to inaf fight the good fight enjoy guys have a good night hello and
[3521.44] AndyRC: you're listening to let's drone out the best drone based podcast on the internet we would like to
[3527.36] AndyRC: thank our patrons including licky dread and also art forkner and lastly that's it we've only got
[3537.28] Jack: two of the four patreons that that donate so i have their names read out so
[3545.76] Jack: if you want your name read out go to patreon