=== Let's Drone Out — Episode 217 ===
Title: LDO 217 - Certifiable Pilots
Recorded: 2019-10-24
Hosts: Andrew "Frank" Hyams, Andy, Neil "NJ Tech" Jones, Wayne "CurryKitten" Andrews, Tony "TheTonstar1" Marchant, Jack "Brightontillifly" Nash
Guest(s): (none recorded)
Total audience: 2,277
Platforms: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUenqgUGgYU); SoundCloud (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/702549535-letsdroneout-ldo-217-certifiable-pilots.mp3)
=====================================

BMFA : https://bmfa.org/Join-Renew/Join-the-BMFA
FPVUK : https://members.fpvuk.org/plans

CAA DRES announcement : https://www.caa.co.uk/Consumers/Unmanned-aircraft/Our-role/Drone-and-model-aircraft-registration/

CAA CAP1789 : https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP1789%20EU%20UAS%20Regulations-Guidance.pdf

[0.0] AndyRC: Hello, and you're listening to the best drone podcast out there, Let's Drone Out.
[4.48] AndyRC: We would like to thank all of our Patreons, including
[8.24] AndyRC: Mikey Dredd, as well as Art Faulkner.
[12.4] Jack: And...
[13.2] Jack: That's it. We've only got two out of the four 12 dollar Patreons
[19.36] Jack: who would help pay for the editing for this train wreck of a show.
[24.24] Jack: If you want to get your name read out, please donate to patreon.com forward slash Let's Drone Out.
[63.01] Jack: Hello and welcome to another episode of Let's Drone Out.
[67.09] Jack: Episode 217. Is that right?
[71.49] Jack: Yes.
[72.61] Jack: Tonight we are joined by...
[75.33] Jack: Curry Kitten.
[76.61] Jack: Hello.
[78.61] Jack: Andy R.C.
[80.53] Jack: How are you doing?
[81.41] Jack: What are you drinking there, man?
[84.13] Jack: Vibe Aldi Coke.
[86.85] Jack: Nice.
[88.45] AndyRC: I mean, tell you what, you think you have trouble going into it.
[92.69] AndyRC: You want to see what this comes out like, mate.
[98.61] Jack: And what people don't realise is that Frank has secretly managed to obtain a job with a CAA.
[107.25] Jack: He's a CAA heel.
[109.73] Jack: With...
[110.85] Jack: That's a lie. It's not true.
[112.69] Jack: That was the intro, was it?
[115.25] Jack: My little pony.
[118.45] Jack: And I'm bright until I die.
[123.17] Jack: Which, yeah, feels like it.
[128.77] Frank: And we have a legal notice.
[132.85] Curry: Any views expressed by any guests on this show are personal and may not reflect the views of hosts
[137.73] Curry: or any participant of the show.
[141.89] Curry: Please don't sue us.
[145.25] Curry: Also, any medical advice people may give towards Jack or from Jack should be ignored to.
[151.89] Curry: Just do heroin, Jack.
[154.77] AndyRC: No, I'm still here.
[156.53] AndyRC: I'm just resting my head on the table.
[159.17] AndyRC: Poor Jack. He's not very well.
[161.25] AndyRC: I'm not very well either. I got a headache.
[163.25] AndyRC: Let's all complain about how ill we are.
[166.53] AndyRC: Everyone would be very entertaining.
[171.81] AndyRC: So, Frank.
[173.33] Frank: Yeah.
[174.85] Jack: We, the CAA.
[177.89] Jack: And registering.
[179.73] Jack: It's...
[181.65] Jack: Like, I don't be funny.
[184.29] Jack: I don't like it.
[185.73] Jack: But it's a step in the right direction.
[189.33] Jack: Because every update had been getting worse and worse and worse.
[194.13] Jack: And, you know, like, you know...
[199.46] Jack: Like Brexit.
[202.82] Jack: Yeah, like, if you're, you know, it went from like,
[206.26] Jack: you got to put your name on a list like a sex offender.
[210.26] Jack: And then it got to, you've also got to give a 16 pound 50.
[213.94] Jack: And then it was, you've got to get a tattoo with like a number and a barcode on your forehead.
[219.94] Jack: And then it went to, you've got to have a tracker inserted up your anus.
[230.1] AndyRC: That's a planet.
[231.14] AndyRC: You were okay with that one, weren't you, Jack?
[233.14] AndyRC: Well, I mean, that would just be gone in seconds.
[236.82] Curry: That would never take hold, would it?
[238.18] Curry: Don't be funny.
[238.58] Jack: Yeah.
[239.62] Jack: And then it went to, if you're a drone user, you've got to live in a concentration camp.
[245.7] Jack: And then it's kind of, they've done away with most of that.
[249.06] Jack: And now it's only nine pound and you've got to go on a list.
[253.76] Frank: Well, kind of.
[255.36] Curry: What's this about the tests?
[257.2] Curry: Tell us about the tests, because I was losing it.
[260.32] Curry: Well, I wasn't understanding it properly.
[262.32] Curry: We were just talking beforehand.
[263.92] Curry: And these things of B tests and where you get those from and stuff like that.
[268.0] Tony: Don't talk to me about B tests.
[271.28] Tony: I need one and it's all line of sight.
[273.52] Tony: And I don't fly a line of sight.
[275.04] Tony: So what's the point?
[276.72] Jack: I thought you were on about hepatitis B.
[279.92] AndyRC: I've probably got that as well.
[281.28] AndyRC: I can tell you about the history of these certificates before drones were a thing.
[288.16] Tony: Well, that's the thing.
[289.52] Tony: Is it because it's before drones were a thing that it's an actual thing?
[293.68] Tony: So they need to redo it then.
[296.08] AndyRC: So before we had electric brushless models, the only real option was to have a designated
[310.08] AndyRC: flying club with a field because it was the only safest way to do it.
[315.2] AndyRC: And then you would, I mean, you didn't have to, but it was a benefit to join the BMFA
[323.12] AndyRC: because you would then be affiliated with them and be insured.
[328.4] AndyRC: And they have this, they had this achievement scheme, which wasn't mandatory,
[338.16] AndyRC: but clubs made it mandatory.
[342.0] AndyRC: It sort of club self-regulated themselves in order to have a standard of competency
[353.36] AndyRC: so a lot of clubs wouldn't let you turn up, join and fly solo
[360.56] AndyRC: unless you had passed your A test.
[364.0] AndyRC: So A test was you can fly solo without somebody having to stand next to you whilst you fly.
[375.52] AndyRC: You could just fly, you know, I mean, you need people there with you.
[380.56] AndyRC: You couldn't fly on your own, but you had a flight line, you know,
[384.8] AndyRC: you've got different sets of rules.
[386.88] AndyRC: You have to be so far away from where you take off from, et cetera, you know.
[393.12] Frank: And to put another myth to bed already, this isn't what the BMFA required.
[400.48] Frank: The BMFA don't require you to have an A test before flying solo.
[404.88] Frank: It's just there so that clubs have something that they can use if they want.
[413.6] Frank: If they've got a site that they've worked really hard to get and they want to keep it,
[418.48] Frank: but they want to allow more people to come and use it rather than just
[422.8] Frank: the small group of people that they know personally,
[425.68] Frank: then they need to be able to have a way of, you know, someone from another club coming over,
[430.96] Frank: you know, if they say, oh, you know, the other club know me, I'm good.
[436.16] Frank: Then there's all this kind of rigmarole of contacting someone in the other club and being
[439.44] Frank: like, this person says they can fly, are they safe to fly, is that all good?
[443.92] Frank: And the A test just kind of skips that whole thing out and it says, you know,
[447.92] Frank: this is a bit of paper that says from this other club, this guy's all right,
[451.36] Frank: he's okay to fly, you don't have to, you know.
[454.56] Curry: Yeah, can we rewind a bit and explain exactly why we're talking about the A-B test in regard to
[461.92] Curry: what it means going forward with the registration and exemptions and stuff?
[466.72] Frank: I think we're getting some background as to what the A test and B test are at the moment.
[471.84] AndyRC: I think it's important to sort of lay the foundations of the A and B tests where it
[476.96] AndyRC: came from because it did become a standard with a lot of clubs of competency.
[483.28] AndyRC: And the clubs that I've been in, you had to have an A test and if there was,
[490.16] AndyRC: if your club put on an event, so you would invite people or you'd have competitions,
[496.64] AndyRC: we'd do competitions in order to enter the competition, you'd have to have a B test
[502.0] AndyRC: because, you know, you'd be flying around pylons and doing sort of more risky things.
[508.0] AndyRC: So they became sort of a self-regulated standard. So when all of this drone regulation thing came in,
[518.96] AndyRC: people saw that they've got an A test and a B test and so to them they've already proved their
[526.96] AndyRC: competency and for them to have to do another test would make that previous standard pointless
[536.96] AndyRC: and then it'd be like, well, what's the BMFA giving? Well, the BMFA is giving me insurance.
[542.24] AndyRC: That's the only thing they're giving me. Absolutely. So I think the idea is to adapt
[549.04] AndyRC: these A and B tests as an official form of competency, right? So the AEMB tests on,
[559.04] Frank: the BMFA A and B tests aren't changing yet as far as I can tell. I'm speaking with
[565.68] Frank: Andy Simmons. That hasn't been mentioned anywhere. The A and B tests, they're just standing,
[571.6] Frank: but they're a long-standing kind of state of like, okay, an A test is some guy you can
[579.2] Frank: let loose on your field and he's not going to cock it up for the rest of you.
[584.0] Frank: The B test is someone who's at a standards that you actually might want to show off
[589.76] Frank: or invite into a competition or something like that. Let's go the wrong way already.
[593.52] Tony: It's what? The wrong way. I think A was always best, B was second best.
[601.6] Curry: This fits in with the modern GCSE where one is worse than nine is best.
[607.68] Tony: There is also the C test. There is a BMFA C test.
[614.48] AndyRC: Well, Tony, I fly mode one and you fly mode two. So does that mean that mode one is better then?
[622.08] AndyRC: Not at all. Well, then that's best with India.
[628.72] Frank: Right. Well, anyway, so there is kind of, it's just like,
[639.36] AndyRC: it's for sailing boats.
[646.03] Frank: Funny. No, it's letter C. It's just like another standard above B.
[652.11] Frank: It's for people who want to show you how good they are.
[657.55] Curry: I'm getting the idea what the C stands for, then.
[661.31] AndyRC: Yeah, basically, you put a blindfold on and then you do a perfect B test with a blindfold on and
[668.51] AndyRC: then that makes you a C.
[672.59] Jack: You transmit it behind your back so you look like you've been arrested
[676.19] Jack: and then getting demonetized.
[677.47] Frank: Yeah, it's like behind your head, like with your tongue, all that kind of stuff.
[680.75] AndyRC: That's really dangerous. I do not recommend doing that.
[685.31] Frank: No, that's not, just look it up if you want to get into that.
[691.23] Frank: Yeah, so there's been a test and also the other thing to think about is that
[696.27] Frank: for a long while it was just the fixed wing A and B test.
[702.03] AndyRC: There was a Halley one. There's always been a Halley one as well.
[705.23] Frank: There's the Halley one and then a few years ago there was kind of
[711.87] Frank: adapted from the Halley one. There's been the multi-roader one.
[717.15] Frank: But as Tony knows, it's not.
[719.87] Frank: It's annoying as hell.
[722.43] Curry: I would like to know if there's a test for free flight.
[725.15] Curry: Okay, we'd like you to release your plane and just see where it goes.
[728.11] Curry: If you can not get hit, you pass or something.
[732.03] Tony: It's kind of a Darwinian test, I think.
[738.91] Tony: So the A test needs updating, doesn't it, for multi-rotors?
[743.23] Frank: Because, you know, it exists. There is a multi-rotor B test.
[747.55] Curry: It needs updating for FPV, I think is what Tony wants.
[750.75] Frank: Yes, because also the FPV extension certificate.
[755.31] Curry: No. I mean, you'd have to get the initial test first. We don't want that.
[759.15] AndyRC: So why is all this relevant?
[764.03] Frank: This is like a whole other can of worms that we've already opened
[766.91] Frank: just by starting to get anywhere near what we're at.
[770.03] AndyRC: So let's go there then.
[774.27] Curry: In your calm and reasonable manner, why we're talking about these tests?
[778.03] Frank: I'm going to have a drink quick, Frank.
[780.19] Frank: Yeah. Well, if I drink too quickly, I'll just be cursing and swearing before the end of the show.
[786.27] Frank: Well, keep doing that then.
[789.55] AndyRC: Welcome to LDO. I like cursing Frank.
[794.03] Curry: It's weird. It's like your parents having this weird argument
[796.83] Curry: where they're actually swearing at each other.
[798.43] Curry: It's a bit disturbing.
[799.95] Tony: Cursing Frank is normally after Colin McRae, Frank.
[804.19] Tony: Yeah.
[807.31] Frank: Yeah. So we were up until three, four weeks ago.
[816.75] Frank: All of this was going to get completely ignored, all the A-test, B-test, all of that.
[821.87] Frank: That was just something that people did in their fields for their own use and not for anything else.
[831.23] Frank: And all the prior standing of the model flying associations and the commercial
[842.27] Frank: flying association R-pass, that was all just going to get ignored.
[845.63] Frank: And there was going to be a flat drone registration and education scheme for all.
[852.83] Frank: And if you kind of look into the broader picture of what's going on here.
[857.39] Frank: So as Andy said, back in the day, the only way to do any of this was successfully,
[866.19] Frank: basically, was to go join a club and they'd help you with your doping,
[869.71] Frank: your fabric on your bolster and all that kind of stuff.
[873.15] Frank: And then we've had some changes to that.
[876.43] Frank: That means there are a lot more people that can just buy stuff off the shelf and fly.
[881.15] Frank: And there's tiny whoops and there's, you know, it's not just big I see things.
[886.35] Frank: There's a whole range of models and flying things and situations that you might be flying in and
[891.39] Frank: all this kind of thing.
[892.03] Frank: It's got a lot more complicated, a lot more popular.
[895.47] Frank: So there's a higher, there's just more complexity to try and capture in the laws.
[903.31] Frank: So instead of being, don't be a dick, the law is getting more complicated saying, okay,
[911.87] Frank: for this level of risk, you can do this, for this level of risk, you can do that and kind of
[917.07] Frank: setting it out like that.
[918.11] Frank: And it's getting more complicated as of July 2020.
[922.91] Frank: And as part of that, they've kind of gone, ah, now it's really quite complicated.
[930.75] Frank: We're going to have to get away to make sure people read this and, you know,
[936.27] Frank: pay attention to it.
[938.19] Frank: How are we going to do that?
[939.79] Frank: Well, we'll set a test and we'll make people have to go through the test before they can fly.
[947.31] Frank: And we'll just push everyone to go through here so that everyone has read the new rules
[953.55] Frank: in July 2020.
[956.27] Frank: And they're like, well, we don't really want to have everyone doing it all in one go.
[960.35] Frank: So we'll get the registration scheme up and running in advance so that all the bugs are
[967.15] Frank: ironed out by July 2020 when the rules get a lot more complicated.
[971.55] Frank: You know, rules are nice and simple now, so the test will be nice and simple now,
[974.67] Frank: system nice and simple.
[976.11] Frank: We'll test it now, get it all running, and then we'll make it more complex with the more
[979.55] Frank: complex rules in July, which hasn't been popular because people are like, well,
[986.83] Frank: the rules are still simple.
[988.59] Frank: I've shown my competence with these current rules.
[993.07] Frank: You're just making me jump through all these hoops just to make sure you know how the hoops work.
[997.71] Frank: This is daft.
[1000.19] Frank: This is stupid.
[1001.71] Frank: The Department for Transport, up until the new Secretary of State for Transport,
[1010.99] Frank: the previous one, we're just like, ignore them.
[1013.79] Frank: They'll go away.
[1014.67] Frank: Just carry on doing what you're doing, set this thing up, make it happen.
[1019.23] Frank: New Secretary of State came in, said, this is all bollocks.
[1024.35] Frank: I'm not signing off on this until you've made this a bit more reasonable,
[1029.47] Frank: and you're not making these existing users off the air go through this new system,
[1037.47] Frank: get them on board, sort this out.
[1044.19] Frank: That's kind of what has happened is the people that have been building this for a year
[1049.07] Frank: have been told to sit down with BMFA and FPV UK and RPAS and try to make something workable.
[1061.22] Frank: Without completely scrapping the whole thing, so that they're having to kind of find a compromise,
[1068.98] Frank: and the compromise that we've got so far is that it's going to be delayed opening by a whole five
[1079.14] Frank: days. It's also going to be, there's going to be an exemption for the members of the associations
[1087.86] Frank: until the end of January 2020, basically because that's when the BMFA's renewal is.
[1098.82] Frank: If you are a member of any of the associations, then you can ignore paying the money until the
[1112.58] Frank: end of January, and then you can either pay the money yourself or they can collect the money for
[1119.62] Frank: you to try and let, and they're not making money out of this. The associations are going to lose
[1124.5] Frank: money on handling all this bullshit, but they're trying to do it to make it as easy as possible
[1132.02] Frank: for their members to carry on flying without having to lift too much of a finger apart from
[1137.78] Frank: just to say, yes, opt in, take my money. No one's got to worry about anything till,
[1147.7] Tony: as long as they're with the BMFA or FPV UK, no one's got to worry anything till January.
[1156.18] Frank: If you're a member, then you don't have to worry about this till January. I'm sure the associations,
[1163.14] Frank: well, I know they are going to be sending out stuff maybe tomorrow, possibly early next week,
[1170.58] Frank: being like, this is how we're going to be dealing with it in the meantime, because obviously,
[1174.9] Frank: they're generally day-to-day having to continue having these meetings and working out how we're
[1180.66] Frank: actually going to do this of now exempting people for three months, two months, three months.
[1188.42] Frank: How are we going to prove that you're a member of the association? What's the accepted way of
[1194.42] Frank: doing that? I'm sure that's going to be coming through in the next few days, I imagine.
[1206.5] Curry: Where's the tie-up in this with the BSER? Because we were talking about,
[1210.82] Curry: was there some extra exemption for this? The drone registration and education scheme
[1217.46] Frank: comes in two parts. One is paying the money and getting an operator number that goes
[1225.7] Frank: on all your aircraft. The other one is the pilot ID, which you get by doing the online test.
[1236.82] Frank: If you are a member of an association and you have one of these measures of competency,
[1250.18] Frank: and that is the ASER, the BSER, the Basic Proficiency Certificate that the BMFA do,
[1260.18] Frank: this is also FPVUK, have an ASER as well, which is all online and you can do it in about 10
[1266.26] Frank: minutes. It's basically what's the new, because BMFA are also bringing out a new,
[1271.22] Frank: completely online version as well. I did it. I have an ASER for FPVUK.
[1280.1] Tony: Yes, there you go. What is that entire all you to do then?
[1284.9] Frank: So that means that you don't have to do...
[1290.42] Frank: What if you listen, I can tell you.
[1299.22] Frank: So the drone registration and education scheme is the two parts. One is paying the money,
[1304.26] Frank: the other one is doing the test. Being a member of one of the associations gets you to skip
[1310.98] Frank: paying the money until the end of January. Having one of these ASERs, BSERs, whatever,
[1316.74] Frank: gets you to skip doing the test. That's pretty much it. So if you've got both of those things,
[1324.26] Frank: if you're a member of one of the associations and you have any one of these tests, then you
[1330.02] Frank: basically don't have to lift a finger to anything until the associations say, would you like us to
[1337.62] AndyRC: do all the paperwork for you? And you can say yes or no. Does it have to be the multi-rotor A
[1343.62] AndyRC: certain BSERs? If you look at the drone registration and education scheme
[1351.54] Frank: online test, if you could skip all of the associations and do it all through the CAA's
[1356.9] Frank: portal and it's just so simple and easy. Anything that the associations are offering
[1370.26] Frank: is at least a little higher standard than that is. So the online test and I'm already BMFA,
[1380.18] Tony: so that means I won't have to do the BSER multi-rotor test.
[1386.58] Frank: That doesn't mean you're all good until basically end of July next year.
[1397.46] Curry: It doesn't save us from registration or paying money or having to display something. It just
[1403.94] Curry: means that someone else has done that on our behalf. So we've still got on a sex offenders
[1407.86] Curry: register. It's just someone else has put us there instead of ourselves. It's not 1650
[1412.1] Frank: anymore. It's nine quid. Nine pounds. The other side of it is, by doing that, you're giving
[1422.74] Frank: another signature to adding to the numbers that are behind the associations.
[1430.98] Frank: And by the way, this is the UK Model Flying Associations, which includes both BMFA and FPV
[1437.78] Frank: UK. They are on the same level. They're involved in the same thing. Honestly, it's not like BMFA
[1447.14] Frank: are evil and FPV UK are angels. They're on the same page. They're on the same side trying to
[1456.58] Frank: fight for us, for our rights. So if you get behind either of them, you'll still be on the
[1464.34] Frank: same side of the conversation over the next few months as they will continue to push for
[1474.18] Tony: owners on us. So what happens in July of next year? So July of next year,
[1481.38] Tony: we've all done this bit. We've all done the test online and we're all in short, blah, blah, blah.
[1488.34] Frank: July happens. What's next? So then there's going to be, I mean, basically for us as FPV pilots,
[1498.82] Frank: pretty much bugger all happens. We've already got rules about how far away we have to be
[1505.06] Frank: from people that are a bit more generous than anyone else anyway. So you don't have to
[1511.54] Frank: pretty much nothing happens. You do potentially get to fly closer to people with what's called
[1523.22] Frank: a certificate of competency, which is like an official document that hasn't been worked out
[1528.02] Frank: what that is yet. And that is what is going to be put out over the next few months.
[1531.78] Tony: That's what I was going to ask because I've flown events all through the year,
[1538.74] Tony: or on the flight lines of places, do I need to do a competency test
[1544.1] AndyRC: and show people that I need to do this? That's kind of up to the event organizers there, really.
[1551.46] AndyRC: Whatever you've been to just went, yeah, go on, mate.
[1555.14] AndyRC: Yeah, that's because nobody really understood that. If you were to be flying fixed-wing,
[1562.5] AndyRC: they would have said at least a B test for you to fly. But because multirotors,
[1568.82] AndyRC: they have no idea. It's like, wow.
[1571.46] Tony: That's what I'm worried about next year because I've got loads of events lined up that I want to
[1575.46] Tony: go and fly in. And I've been invited to and fly on the flight line.
[1579.46] Frank: It's worth speaking to them and making sure whether or not they want you to have a B set.
[1584.34] Frank: Because that is the thing is the A set is, are you trustworthy to be piddling around a field
[1591.3] Frank: that someone's very precious about? And a B set is, are you good enough to be displaying in front
[1597.3] Frank: of people? It's just a measure of trust. Well, keep an eye on FPV UK is all I'm going to say.
[1611.94] Curry: In one way, you could say to Tony, oh, just do some line of sight practice and do it. And in
[1617.06] Curry: the other side, it's like, why should Tony practice all this line of sight stuff just so he can turn
[1622.18] Curry: up to an event not to show line of sight? It's pretty pointless.
[1625.78] AndyRC: Well, the idea of line of sight is if your camera feed drops out for any reason, you lift your
[1634.74] Curry: goggles up and you can fly. If someone invented a proper FPV test, they might do something like
[1647.14] Curry: fly along, lift your goggles and recover your drone as part of the test. But flying pure line
[1654.18] Curry: of sight, just so I can do a figure eight, I can do a circle in each direction and take off a land
[1660.02] Frank: doesn't really qualify you as well. So playing devil's advocate, I imagine the justification
[1669.06] Frank: would be from them that if you're in that situation where you're flying FPV
[1675.54] Frank: at a display and your feed craps out, you need to be able to lift your goggles and recover
[1682.34] Frank: from whatever orientation and wherever you are line of sight. So if you're halfway through flying
[1688.26] Frank: a maneuver upside down and your video craps out, you still need to be able to recover that line of
[1693.7] Frank: sight. And the easiest way to show that is that you can fly those maneuvers line of sight. If you
[1700.66] Frank: can fly your figure eight and you can do your loop line of sight, then it means that you should
[1705.06] Frank: have, theoretically, the skills to be able to recover that line of sight.
[1711.3] AndyRC: You have to remember as well, you have to remember FPV is a new thing, a line of sight,
[1717.14] AndyRC: as you know, it's dominated for decades. So, you know, it's going to be expected of you to be able
[1725.86] Curry: to do line of sight first. Because you'll know this, Andy, what is the situation for people,
[1734.26] Curry: should they lose radio signal? What is part of the test then? Because I'm just equating that to,
[1740.74] Curry: okay, because in any sort of race event or anything, they will check that your fail safe
[1746.34] Curry: is set up to immediately disarm. So you just fall to the ground. So in some ways, I suppose you could
[1753.54] Curry: argue that sort of losing vision, depending on the circumstances, is a bit like losing radio
[1757.78] Curry: signal. You might want it just to fall immediately on the floor, because of course, you shouldn't be
[1761.86] Curry: overcrowded to people and stuff, if you're at some sort of event. So what would be the situation?
[1767.62] AndyRC: What is the done thing? Should you lose radio signal? This brings it back to Andy's point,
[1776.34] AndyRC: if you lose radio signal, there's nothing you can do about it. If you lose video signal,
[1782.42] AndyRC: there's something you can do about it. So that's the answer.
[1790.26] Tony: I've a couple of times lifted my goals and recovered and landed, but if I ever lose,
[1795.94] Tony: that's why the insurance, if you lose that sight, I normally just disarm and just like,
[1800.42] Tony: well, I'll go and find it in a minute. That's why the insurance is there, because,
[1805.46] AndyRC: you know, years ago, we didn't even have fail safes. What would happen is you'd go out of range,
[1811.62] AndyRC: the thing would just fly on forever and fly for miles and miles. But as long as you were
[1819.14] AndyRC: adhering to all of the correct distances away from people, you know, there's an element of risk
[1829.3] AndyRC: there. So as long as you follow the BMFA guidelines, things are going to go wrong.
[1836.82] Tony: You know, you got a crash. Jack just said a great point. He's probably on the toilet typing this,
[1844.5] Tony: but he's put, I'm a glasses wearer, so if I lose video, I have to take my goggles off,
[1850.1] Tony: find my glasses, put them on and work out my orientation of the quad and then fly back.
[1857.7] Frank: This episode was recorded in front of a live online audience, downloaded and edited to make
[1862.34] Frank: sense when it played audio only, censored to please the iTunes people, hosted on the internet,
[1867.38] Frank: forwarded through to your podcast provider, downloaded, playing on your device and is now
[1871.7] Frank: playing in your ears. All thanks to our Patreons. Consider joining them and you'll also get other
[1877.14] Frank: online benefits. Find out more at patreon.com forward slash let's drone out. That's a lot of
[1883.86] Frank: both things also in the chat has another good point that I would, I would make, you know,
[1888.5] Frank: on this in that the, the B-cert, you have to do it in, uh, acro mode. You're not allowed to have
[1894.9] Frank: any stabilization beyond that required for it to actually fly. Um,
[1901.46] AndyRC: that kind of makes sense because back, back in the day, we never had stabilization or gyros and
[1908.5] AndyRC: we were, that's what the, you had to do your A test on that. So does the A test allow you to have
[1915.14] Frank: stability? No, no. So the basic, uh, proficiency certificate does, uh, that's, that's what the basic
[1922.9] Frank: proficiency certificate is. It's basically the A test, but using stabilization and or GPS and
[1928.26] Frank: whatever else you want to do. Okay. Um, so if you're doing it with like a Phantom, then that's
[1933.3] Frank: probably going to be in basic proficiency certificate. As somebody who's been through
[1937.46] AndyRC: all this and like, it should be hard, I think, because if it's hard and you pass, then you,
[1947.46] AndyRC: you're proficient. And I've always, I've always said this because you can do it. Well, I'm
[1954.1] Curry: line of sight and circumstances are quite important to this. When you were back in the
[1960.18] Curry: olden days, as I'm going to call it, Andy, when you were a weaner and people used to fly
[1965.54] Curry: line of sight planes, you'd be up high and you'd have an amount of time to do things. And trying
[1972.74] Curry: to sort of transpose that onto modern quad fly, which is generally really fast, really low,
[1978.26] Curry: doesn't really bode well. I've lost vision by the time you've done this, you're already in the
[1982.34] Curry: ground. So you really want it to disarm. It's not that line of sight isn't important for recovery
[1989.3] Curry: and quad. If you, if you can do it like I couldn't the other day, literally I lost vision because my
[1994.58] Curry: HDMI cable decided to come unplugged. And what I couldn't do is take my goggles off, get my glasses,
[2000.1] Curry: go back and look over and find my quad. And I just disarmed it. So it, what they do need is a more
[2007.06] Curry: up to date test. They need like an FPV pilot test where the most of it should be FPV. And there
[2012.1] Curry: should be some test to say, like any sort of basic safety test. It's like, okay, we're going to
[2017.62] Curry: simulate you losing your video. What we want you to do is lift your goggles up, recover your
[2021.94] Curry: aircraft and land it in front of you as you might do in this situation. And if you can't,
[2026.02] Tony: just disarm it because you won't be overcrowds anyway. Yeah. How can you guarantee that though?
[2032.66] AndyRC: I think you're, I think you're running, I think you're running into dangerous territory there
[2038.26] AndyRC: because if what you're suggesting is leading to every model having to have some sort of GPS,
[2047.3] Curry: failsafe rescue. No, no, I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that there should be a
[2053.3] Curry: part of a test which said you've lost your vision. I'm of the opinion, yes, you should be able to at
[2059.78] Curry: least recover it, but there's nothing to say you shouldn't be able to go into at least stabilization.
[2064.02] Curry: I don't, I don't think I'd be mean enough to say you must land it in acro mode. And we've given you
[2070.02] AndyRC: Jack's crazy rates. I agree with that. I think the majority of the tests should be,
[2078.1] Curry: yeah, this is the audio test. So the majority of tests should be about FPV flying. Can you do this?
[2081.94] Curry: Can you do that? And, you know, there's plenty of people that can't do a lot of stuff in FPV when
[2087.54] Curry: they start like fly gently and land, which I think are useful things to do. So having a part
[2092.98] Curry: of the test to say, lift your goggles, recover your model, land it in front of you, I think is
[2097.22] Curry: a fair part of the test. But I think the entire thing in line of sight to say, okay, you're now
[2102.34] Curry: qualified to fly FPV, even though we haven't even talked about that as part of the test,
[2107.3] Frank: goes against it in wrong ways. Exactly. My hard balance is that, you know, it's all well and good
[2113.94] Frank: saying, oh, we need one as well that's even more tailored to FPV. But at the moment, like people
[2122.26] Frank: are struggling to find, you know, to be able to get a multirotor, A-cert or B-cert. Because,
[2130.9] Frank: you know, if they're part of a local club and they, you know, they want to get an examination done
[2138.26] Frank: with the examiner at a local club. And unless that examiner is very familiar with multirotor,
[2145.7] Frank: A-cert and B-cert, then they might not even potentially, might not even be aware of it.
[2153.3] Frank: And at least it's, you know, as I've seen on multiple occasions already, the first thing is
[2159.86] Frank: they then have to go to the VA and go, well, it's multirotors. If it's a good thing, how do we do
[2165.46] Frank: that? Do we need, do we need a helicopter examiner? Do we need this? Do we need that? So, you know,
[2170.42] Frank: it's, you know, I'm sure there are clubs out there that are doing this all the time and it's
[2175.14] Frank: second nature to them, but there are also quite a few clubs by the looks of things from people I
[2181.38] Frank: know that have tried to get multirotor A-cert that it's not been a simple process. So, you know,
[2189.78] Frank: I think maybe we should get that sorted out. I just think there needs to be another test.
[2195.14] Tony: There needs to, they need to do an FPV test. They need a Tony test. They need an FPV test.
[2201.78] Tony: It's stupid doing a, it's like what I'm going to do and drive my car to my next job
[2207.38] Tony: via the f***ing pavement with a radio control. I get in it. Which is totally different.
[2217.62] NJ: Thanks for joining. Sorry, I'll just realise that I'm terrible in the chat. I just sit there and say
[2223.62] NJ: stupid things. So, it's better I come in here and say stupid things where you can see my face.
[2229.54] NJ: Do you know what? There's, it did get me thinking this. There is something interesting in the
[2234.82] NJ: perception of this whole thing. And that is, it kind of allures a little bit to what Tony was saying
[2242.26] NJ: about his level of comfort with, for instance, flying loss. And it got me thinking really about
[2249.46] NJ: the integrated systems of what things are. I mean, I did my A and B on helicopters a long,
[2254.9] NJ: long time ago. And that's because I was, as well as just flying them for a long time,
[2260.1] NJ: I was asked to do a couple of display things. And for public display, as Andy said, you know,
[2264.98] NJ: really, by right, you should have your B set to prove you can do it safely and, you know,
[2270.5] NJ: and all that. But my kind of argument with multirotors is that things have changed
[2279.22] NJ: in terms of, I mean, what you're asking the system to do when you're flying a multirotor,
[2285.7] NJ: you know, inherent by design, when you're flying a multirotor in Acro versus angle. I mean, what's
[2291.86] NJ: the argument you're saying you should be able to fly in Acro, but how do you define the difference
[2297.06] NJ: between Acro and angle other than you're throwing a switch? The flight controller is capable of both
[2303.54] NJ: and both are integrated into the system. So what's the importance put on there that you can fly with
[2310.66] NJ: it off, but if it's part of the system, what's what's the difference with it being on or off?
[2315.06] NJ: Anyway, surely, the more important thing is the decision making process that the checklist,
[2321.46] NJ: if you like to pilots, of what to do next is more probable, the focus importance, I think, than
[2329.86] NJ: saying, can I fly this thing in Acro? Should one or the other fail? I mean, with helicopters back
[2338.42] NJ: in the day, I mean, you're still doing, even when they went fly barless, you were doing
[2343.22] NJ: that same thing of controlling the helicopter, but you're you're telling a system what to do.
[2350.74] NJ: And there's still a level of computing that's going on. You don't have, in the same way you don't have
[2355.62] NJ: direct control of a quadcopter, you're telling a computer I want to turn left. But all the actual
[2360.42] NJ: computer algorithms and control is done by, you know, you're just giving it an interpretation of
[2366.34] NJ: what you want, and it's doing it. So why should we look at level flying level mode any differently
[2372.42] NJ: than we should look at Acro is what I'm saying. In terms of safety, I think level, including level
[2381.54] AndyRC: mode in if there was a test, for example, where you had to simulate your video cutting out,
[2389.22] AndyRC: the first thing that you should do is stick into level mode, because, because you could, you could
[2394.5] AndyRC: be upside down when it cuts out. And by the time you've lifted your goggles up, you're in the ground.
[2400.34] AndyRC: So if you flick a switch, it's gonna, it's gonna write itself. And a good example, a good example
[2405.38] AndyRC: of this, I watched this happen to MJ at Mini Air Show, you were flying and someone plugged in.
[2414.34] AndyRC: Shot me out of the sky. Yeah. So did, so you lifted the goggles up straight away, did you flick it?
[2419.94] NJ: Yeah, I've had that happen to me many times before. I've had it, you know, I've got caught out in the
[2425.7] NJ: worst possible way, pretty early on when I was FPVing. I haven't really had it happen since, but
[2431.14] NJ: I'm sure many of you relate to it where the goggle battery has been beeping, and you think,
[2434.74] NJ: oh, I'm all right for 30 seconds. And of course, it dies far quicker. And I've had to lift the
[2439.22] NJ: goggles up. And then, yeah, again, straight to level mode. And then I, you know, or, you know,
[2446.1] NJ: get the quad around the way I want it and bring it back. That's, that's something I can do from
[2450.18] NJ: the heli-days, sussing out which way around a helicopter is when it's a silhouette, is a skill
[2455.22] NJ: you need. Because if you fly near sunset, then if anyone that does fly helicopter will know,
[2459.7] NJ: or a plane, you look at a plane in sunset, it takes you a minute to work out whether it's coming or
[2463.46] NJ: going. And what controls to put in to bring it back if you haven't got a return at home,
[2469.38] NJ: before you then finally kill it and let it fall out of the sky. I mean, with a helicopter,
[2474.1] NJ: it's a whole different thing. You've got 120 mil of swinging carbon doing 2100 RPM. It's
[2479.54] NJ: obviously better if you can get the orientation right and bring it back. But I guess my big point
[2485.86] NJ: is, what do we consider a base level communication with the quadcopter? You're telling it to do
[2492.26] NJ: something if it has the option of level or acro as part of its base communication. I don't think
[2498.82] NJ: one should be discriminating over the other. Especially if it's something that's advantageous
[2504.9] NJ: to the pilot to make good choices. So in that way, I do, and I'm from the old school where you had to
[2512.1] NJ: learn all that and I did my A and B set and I understand that, you know, I'm, I'm lucky I've
[2516.5] NJ: come from that background because it meant I could go out and fly a quad loss with no problems
[2520.74] NJ: whatsoever. But I understand where Tony's coming from. And although whenever I teach anyone,
[2527.78] NJ: I always teach them basic loss first. So I do think you should learn it to be honest with you.
[2531.38] NJ: So I think it's good. It's good for the brain anyway. And there are situations where it could
[2535.38] NJ: help you. I still, I do think there is an argument for saying, what is that base communication with
[2541.94] NJ: the quad? What's available to that quad in terms of the onboard computer? What can it do to help
[2546.42] NJ: you the pilot and make that part of the process of recovery and good decision making? I also think
[2556.18] AndyRC: Jack has a great point about people who wear glasses as well, because there that you couldn't
[2565.14] AndyRC: do that if you wore glasses. But you have to remember that part of the deal of being able
[2573.78] AndyRC: to fly with goggles is that you have to have a spotter, right? So let's just, if you do need to
[2582.5] AndyRC: wear glasses, I think it will be very unreasonable to ask the glasses where to wear contact lenses,
[2590.9] AndyRC: you know, especially as the fan is basically drying them into a crusty thing stuck to your
[2598.5] AndyRC: eyes. So that's not an option. But for people who wear glasses, we're supposed to have a spotter
[2606.34] AndyRC: anyways when we're flying. So let's just say, you know, the test would be all right, my video has
[2615.86] AndyRC: gone out, you pass the transmitter to your spotter and your spotter takes over with that.
[2621.86] Tony: Your spotter is your mum. I don't think your spotter has to be, back in the olden days,
[2633.38] Curry: when the Riggs first came out, the spotter had to be someone who was able to take control,
[2638.98] AndyRC: but these days it's just someone who can see where you are, isn't it? Well, I think it should be
[2644.18] AndyRC: someone who can take control there. But that's even what's the point in having a spotter otherwise,
[2652.82] Curry: you know, because you're mode one and I'll be like, oh, what's going on here? It's all kind of funny.
[2660.18] AndyRC: Yeah, well, all my all of my friends are cool and fly mode one locally. So I don't know who's up
[2666.26] Tony: there. That says it all. I've just been, I just wasn't actually laughing at anything you just
[2676.02] NJ: said, but someone started talking about shadow puppets. I've got to do this. Very good. Very
[2684.56] NJ: good. They're spotters or they're dogs. Well, yeah, to have something running around barking
[2696.0] NJ: directly under the quad as to where it is or just behind it. There's latency in that dog.
[2701.04] Frank: Hold on. It works. I'm not sure the dog will be able to call out that there's
[2708.64] Frank: light aircraft coming in dead stick into your field. But mind us, he does it with a series of
[2713.84] Tony: parks and sniffs. It should be a different, another B-cert test for FBV. I think that needs to be.
[2724.48] Curry: Well, I can't say this, but I agree with Tony. Thank you.
[2732.88] NJ: I definitely think there's a deeper thought process that needs to happen. And it feels like
[2738.0] NJ: there's deadlines and bodies are rushing towards it. And I mean, I presume everyone's seen X-Jets
[2747.28] NJ: video where he points out. I know I'm not, he's not attacking the BMFA.
[2754.72] NJ: But I mean, there's in terms of how the legislation's written, there are holes.
[2759.68] NJ: And it doesn't need refining like it. It does feel like things are rushing a little bit.
[2764.64] Frank: Well, yeah. So this is what the problem was, was that they were going off on one and completely
[2770.96] Frank: ignoring anyone else in the space and just going off. The DFT, Department of Transport,
[2778.96] Frank: were just kind of making things up as they go along without listening to other people.
[2783.36] Frank: Exactly. And they sat down like a month ago and told, no, no, no, you need to actually
[2788.8] Frank: work with these people on it. And that is what is happening at the moment.
[2794.16] Frank: And so I thoroughly expect there will be more updates by January.
[2801.04] Tony: Yeah, fast, hard refinement. I hope so. Because I can't fly a line of science over the line.
[2807.68] AndyRC: The thing is though, if you've been invited to these events, then, you know,
[2815.12] AndyRC: they'll probably give you, you know, especially as you went last year, they can't say, oh, you know,
[2821.44] AndyRC: we let you in last year. And if you've been invited, then you probably won't have to
[2827.76] AndyRC: jump through any hoops. You know, you've already proved your competency to them.
[2832.32] Tony: It's not only that, it's the whole different changes in July as to earning money.
[2840.32] Frank: This is kind of the potentially interesting thing that, you know, if you're thinking about a B-cert,
[2845.84] Frank: it might be worth doing it before next July. Because, you know, there's-
[2850.24] AndyRC: Does it have to be a multi-rotors though? No.
[2853.84] AndyRC: So I've got my B-certs in fixed-wing, MJ's in Halley's. So, you know,
[2859.52] AndyRC: we don't have to do the multi-rotors. Unless you're going to have to do
[2864.96] Frank: every test on each different aircraft, then I can't imagine they're going to be bothered about it.
[2871.92] Tony: This is really, I really want to do that. I need to do the B-cert before July of next year.
[2877.92] Frank: I mean, it's also possible that they, you know, we get a new Secretary of State for Transport,
[2884.64] Frank: who goes, we'll just do whatever we like and not listen to the community and decides that
[2893.28] Frank: the B-cert isn't worth anything. And it's going to be PFCO on speed and require even more stuff
[2900.16] AndyRC: and cost even more money. I mean, it's changed so many times, you know, it almost seems like it's
[2907.04] AndyRC: not worth discussing because it just changes all the time and, you know, just makes people worry.
[2913.92] NJ: There's definitely an element of that, but it's good to see that we're not being completely
[2919.52] NJ: steamrolled over. The BMFA's involvement is ultimately in the right direction. But as Andrew
[2930.56] NJ: said, I dare say it's all going to be a hard refining process. By January, we may be discussing
[2939.92] Tony: completely different things. But I want to earn money from July from next year. I literally want
[2948.4] Tony: to do this as some bit of my wages. Do I just go and do a PFCO or do I wait? Well, you'll have to
[2957.52] Tony: wait, Tony, is the answer, I guess. This is the thing. Does the PFCO involve line of sight?
[2966.9] Tony: That's what I was about to say. I'm sure it does. You can fly a bloody GPS quad when using that.
[2974.26] Curry: Yeah, but don't you have to do a test on each quad you'd use or something?
[2978.26] Tony: No, you just go and do it using it. I can take my Phantom 3 down there and put it in GPS mode and
[2984.98] Tony: tell them what the weather's going to be tomorrow, write a log of whatever.
[2988.9] Tony: That's just completely pointless, though, isn't it? Yeah, well, exactly. This is totally different
[2993.86] Tony: to what I'm flying FPV. This is why we're here talking about this because if I pass my test
[3000.42] Tony: using a Phantom, I'm just hovering, let go of the sticks and I panic, fresh return home.
[3007.94] Frank: A big part of the PFCO is that I am now speaking a little bit more outside my wheelhouse,
[3015.3] Frank: but my understanding is that you have to write your operations manual.
[3019.94] Frank: Mm-hmm.
[3022.58] Frank: These are the things that I am going to do and this is how I'm going to make sure that it's going
[3025.7] Frank: to be safe and these are my checklists and this is how I'm going to assess the area and all that
[3030.26] Frank: kind of thing. You have to write that, submit it, get it signed off and you can get it back at the
[3037.54] Frank: moment. Things might change. I have to say, the area of commercial versus recreational flights
[3055.38] Curry: has always been a weird one because, depending on the circumstances,
[3059.38] Curry: two people could do exactly the same flight, but if one did it for money, then that…
[3067.14] Curry: This is what is changing in July 2020. One would be legal, one would be legal,
[3070.9] Curry: although you can earn money without having a PFCO if you didn't set out to earn money.
[3076.1] Curry: Or you fly indoors.
[3078.1] Curry: Or you fly indoors.
[3079.62] Frank: This is what's going to change in July 2020 is that there is not going to be a distinction
[3084.1] Frank: between flights that are done commercially and flights that are done non-commercially.
[3088.18] Frank: It's going to be all about the risks. It's going to be where you're flying, what you're flying,
[3092.18] Frank: who is flying it, what's going to matter, not why you're flying it.
[3096.74] Tony: This is what I want to know. I want to know what I need to do
[3100.42] Tony: before July turns up because in July, I've earned money flying.
[3105.94] Curry: Just not loud to say, all right, Gavner, you need some photos done. I've got the cord here.
[3110.58] Curry: What do you need?
[3113.3] Frank: In July 2020, if you want to go make money by flying in a field away from everyone,
[3120.98] Frank: then you can do that. As long as your registration and operator ID and all that by then,
[3130.26] Frank: which you can do just by ticking the box on the BMFA or FPV UK website,
[3135.94] Frank: then you'll be able to do that commercially.
[3139.94] Frank: The certificate of competency details to be determined is what is going to then allow you
[3146.42] Frank: to do the more medium risk things. That's going to be the sort of-
[3156.82] NJ: That's interesting because, yeah.
[3160.98] NJ: Tony, I reckon, well, I'm very confident one session down at the field,
[3169.94] NJ: I don't know, 20-something batteries, I could teach you to lost fly.
[3176.66] NJ: In one day, I could teach you a lost fly. You're just associating a different aspect
[3182.5] NJ: to your vision, to muscle memories that you already have. I've taught my missus to fly.
[3190.18] NJ: She's had a go on the sim and I've managed to get her to do a lost flying in level mode
[3195.06] NJ: of a drone and she's managed to get it to hover and move around.
[3200.34] NJ: There's absolutely no question you'd be able to do it. I mean,
[3203.86] NJ: I quite happily come down and we spend a day and at the end of the day,
[3207.54] NJ: you might even be moving on to some basic aircraft flying.
[3210.98] Frank: And Tony, you do RC cars, right?
[3214.98] Frank: You don't?
[3215.7] Frank: Huh?
[3216.5] Frank: Yeah.
[3217.22] Frank: So you don't wander around walking after it all the time to make sure you've got the same
[3222.66] Frank: orientation, do you?
[3224.02] Frank: No.
[3224.82] Frank: There you go then. So you've got the wiring in your brain somewhere.
[3228.82] Frank: Have you ever tried it? Have you tried it ever?
[3232.74] AndyRC: Not really.
[3233.7] AndyRC: Well, you probably just be fine and it could do it. Just try it.
[3238.74] Tony: But I just don't see, like, for me, it's like, um,
[3242.58] AndyRC: you're missing out. I'm telling you.
[3244.34] Tony: It's another, I'm enjoying, I will know something very important.
[3252.34] Frank: Mr. Fruitacakes is very, uh, as a very good point.
[3256.34] Frank: You, if you're flying commercially, you will need commercial flying insurance.
[3261.14] Frank: That will be a requirement in July if you want to fly commercially.
[3264.66] Frank: That's not a problem by paying for insurance.
[3268.02] Frank: It's, it's just finding it and paying for it.
[3270.1] Frank: But yeah, someone will do it.
[3272.74] Frank: That is the additional bit of information.
[3276.98] Curry: I have to just say, my problem with line of sight flying is not orientation, et cetera.
[3282.82] Curry: It's the fact that after two batteries, I was like, this is really boring.
[3286.9] AndyRC: I'm flying in circles here.
[3294.58] Curry: Okay. Well, look, I can change and go the other way or I could do a figure eight.
[3298.02] Curry: Look, I could do a flip, but
[3299.94] Curry: What's the current cost of the PFCO?
[3304.1] AndyRC: Uh, it's like, isn't it, it's like significantly less.
[3307.7] Tony: I thought it was like two grand because they're pooing themselves
[3311.54] Tony: because they know everyone don't need one by July.
[3314.66] Tony: Right. Okay.
[3315.86] NJ: Yeah. Because I remember there was that there's, when I first looked into doing
[3320.34] NJ: the, uh, commercial side of it, which was six, maybe seven years ago, um,
[3326.66] NJ: there was actually on there was, there was less than 10 people on the list who were certified.
[3334.1] NJ: Um, and one of those people was a guy called Allen Davis.
[3337.86] NJ: And I can't remember his company.
[3340.02] NJ: He'll come to me at some point, but, um, he did a lot of work military wise.
[3344.66] NJ: But he did commercial drone operation stuff and I went and I contacted him and I went and saw him
[3351.38] NJ: and he didn't have a lot of good things to say about the, the PFCO thing.
[3356.74] NJ: And he actually did it him.
[3358.82] NJ: He actually did it himself.
[3360.02] NJ: And he said at the time, I remember him saying, you don't need to actually pay that provided you're
[3365.54] NJ: inclined the way he was, which is he wrote his own manual for his aircraft.
[3371.94] NJ: He basically did all the paperwork and submitted the CAA and got approval by doing it all himself
[3379.14] NJ: and not having to spend the money.
[3380.66] NJ: So if you're that kind of person who enjoys doing all of that,
[3385.46] NJ: there is another route to doing it and to get you certified.
[3388.42] Frank: Is that still the case?
[3389.54] NJ: But maybe, yeah, maybe that's changed now, but he's, uh, he's, I'm pretty sure he's still,
[3394.82] NJ: well, now he's certified.
[3395.86] NJ: I don't know whether he'll have to go through the PFCO thing, but, um, at the time he, he got out
[3401.3] NJ: this manual and he said, look, you know, just slammed it down.
[3404.02] NJ: He said, I wrote that.
[3405.46] NJ: I wrote and sent it off to the CIA and I got approval from them directly.
[3409.22] NJ: I didn't have to go and pay to your grand for this, uh, certification, which I thought was quite cool.
[3414.18] NJ: Yeah, it was okay.
[3415.06] Curry: So because it used ages ago, he called the B-NUC, wasn't it?
[3418.42] Curry: A couple of people only went through it.
[3419.78] Curry: B-NUC, B-NUC, B-NUC.
[3420.74] Curry: And then it was a P-A-4?
[3422.5] Curry: Is, is they just had these agencies set up that was recognized by the CIA.
[3427.06] Curry: Correct, that's exactly it.
[3428.42] Curry: The P-A-A would, it's kind of like a fast track, but it was always possible to do it yourself.
[3432.66] Curry: But of course, most people would shy away from that sort of.
[3436.34] NJ: Yeah, and I think it's, it's AJS is the name of his company, but yeah, he was,
[3441.38] NJ: he was one of the few on the list that I saw didn't have the B-NUC.
[3445.46] NJ: And, and that's why I contacted him to, how are you, how are you doing this legally
[3449.46] NJ: without that certification?
[3451.3] NJ: And I think his term for it was a self-licking lollipop.
[3454.66] NJ: I remember that because when he said it, burst out laughing at the time.
[3458.66] NJ: But AJS support, I think is his company, but he was one of the first few.
[3462.58] NJ: And I said, that was when the list was 10 or so.
[3465.7] NJ: And that obviously, if you go and look up, look up that list of who's registered
[3468.82] NJ: commercially for flying drones now, it is probably about a thousand companies.
[3474.42] NJ: It's colossal.
[3475.54] Tony: I've got so many contacts and I've done some work Tuesday with a big company.
[3482.18] Tony: And it was all free and I've done it for friends and stuff like that.
[3486.34] Tony: So, but July, I want to literally do it and earn money.
[3492.98] Tony: I mean, I just don't know what to do.
[3495.14] Tony: Like people do this, do that.
[3497.14] Tony: And it's just so up in the air.
[3499.14] Tony: And, you know, there's this visa, which is line of sight.
[3502.42] Tony: I don't fly it.
[3503.14] Tony: I fly a BV.
[3504.34] Tony: It's just doing my nut.
[3507.54] Frank: The sort of the range of possibilities here is quite wide.
[3514.98] Frank: A lot of this is still up in the air.
[3517.06] Frank: So on the one sort of the easiest end, if you're really lucky, it could be that BMFA
[3525.3] Frank: talks to their insurers.
[3526.5] Frank: They say, oh, yeah, we'll cover you for commercial work.
[3529.46] Frank: If it's the same sort of normal stuff.
[3533.06] Frank: And they might say, you know, the CIA might say that the certificate of competency
[3542.42] Frank: might also be equivalent to, say, a visa or whatever.
[3546.34] Frank: That's kind of a one end of it.
[3548.34] Frank: The other end of it, it could be that the CIA say the certificate of competency
[3554.9] Frank: is just going to be the new name for the PFCO.
[3558.18] Frank: So if you want to be doing the kind of more interesting flying rather than just flying
[3562.58] Frank: in a field, then you're going to need a PFCO.
[3567.06] Frank: And it could be that the insurers say, whoa, we're getting a lot of people coming in.
[3572.74] Frank: Once in commercial insurance, we're going to have to raise our standards and they might
[3577.06] Frank: have a requirement that you do something that is basically equivalent to the current PO.
[3581.78] Frank: And that could be really hard as well.
[3584.34] Frank: So it could be really easy to do stuff come July 2020, commercially.
[3590.66] Frank: And it could be really hard and we don't know yet.
[3595.06] Frank: But I expect we will know more come January.
[3599.7] Tony: Yeah, because it's what I want to do.
[3602.58] Tony: I want to do my normal work and I want to do some flying jobs, which I've done in the past.
[3608.5] Tony: And I want to do more of and I've got quite a lot of people in the future.
[3620.22] Frank: Well, hopefully we'll find out at some point in a few months what it's going to be.
[3627.34] Frank: Yeah, very quickly before we sign off, control line, you can do what you want.
[3634.22] Frank: Don't worry about it.
[3635.1] Frank: Under 250 grams, don't worry, don't have to worry about it, at least in July 2020,
[3643.5] Frank: because don't worry about it for now.
[3646.94] Frank: Then the flying indoors, don't worry about it.
[3651.02] Frank: Indoors is not outdoors.
[3652.38] Frank: It's not under these rules.
[3654.38] Frank: So that's kind of, if you're not in the UK, forget everything.
[3662.22] Frank: I know about it.
[3665.28] Frank: But yeah, is Jack coming back to sign us off or has he gone for good?
[3670.64] Tony: He's on the toilet.
[3672.0] Tony: I don't know.
[3673.52] Tony: That was a guess.
[3674.88] Tony: I mostly ring him when he's on the toilet.
[3677.92] Tony: I probably guess he's probably on the loo.
[3680.32] Tony: So someone else can sign us out.
[3682.08] Tony: N.J.
[3683.76] Frank: N.J. as chat's favorite.
[3686.56] NJ: Just went and jumped in and interrupted everyone.
[3692.0] NJ: I should probably do it.
[3692.88] NJ: Yeah, we appreciate it.
[3696.32] NJ: Yeah, the brain went mental.
[3698.56] NJ: I thought, right, I'm not going to be able to get all this all typed out.
[3701.44] NJ: Okay, so thank you very much for watching.
[3704.08] NJ: Let's drown out.
[3704.88] NJ: You have been joined by everyone's favorite Carrie Kitten.
[3708.56] NJ: Goodbye.
[3709.92] NJ: Andy R.C.
[3711.44] NJ: Tata.
[3712.48] NJ: Andrew slash Frank.
[3714.8] NJ: Bye.
[3716.24] NJ: And Jack's little Tony.
[3718.56] NJ: Bonjour.
[3719.52] NJ: I'm N.J.
[3720.08] NJ: Tech.
[3720.48] NJ: See you all soon.
[3722.96] AndyRC: Hello, and you're listening to Let's Drone Out, the best drone based podcast in the world.
[3728.96] AndyRC: We would like to thank all of our patrons, including
[3734.24] AndyRC: Hello, and you're listening to Let's Drone Out, the best drone based
[3743.17] AndyRC: podcast in the world.
[3745.49] AndyRC: We would like to thank all of our patrons, including
[3750.61] AndyRC: Oh, for God's sake.
[3755.49] Tony: Hi, Mikey drone.
[3757.73] AndyRC: Hello, and you're listening to Let's Drone Out, the best drone based podcast on the internet.
[3763.41] AndyRC: We would like to thank our patrons, including
[3767.97] AndyRC: And also
[3770.53] AndyRC: And lastly,
[3772.45] Jack: That's it.
[3773.57] Jack: We've only got two Patreons that donate.
[3776.21] Jack: Done their name read out.
[3777.25] Frank: But if you want your name read out, go to this link.
[3786.77] Frank: Let's drone out.