=== Let's Drone Out — Episode 287 ===
Title: LDO 287 - What The Regs?!
Recorded: 2021-02-25
Hosts: Adam Juniper, Andrew "Frank" Hyams, Neil "NJ Tech" Jones, Wayne "CurryKitten" Andrews
Guest(s): (none recorded)
Total audience: 2,212
Platforms: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVR3ZVxvzsk); SoundCloud (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/994640038-letsdroneout-ldo-287-what-the-regs.mp3)
=====================================

Adam is https://twitter.com/adamjuniper

ANO is https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=10029
CAP722 is https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP722%20Edition8(p).pdf
Article 16 is https://rcc.bmfa.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/20201215-UK-Model-Flying-Associations-UAS-7068-Article-16-Authorisation.pdf / https://www.fpvuk.org/files/20201215-UKMFA-UAS-7068-Article-16-Authorisation.pdf

CAP2012 is https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP2012_EU_Drone_Rules_Factsheet_V7%207.pdf
CAP2003 is https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP2003_EU_Drone_Rules_Factsheet_V7%201.pdf
CAP2004 is https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP2004_EU_Drone_Rules_Factsheet_V7%202.pdf

[0.0] Curry: Welcome to Let's Drone Out, the original and best drone themed podcast.
[5.0] Curry: We record the show live on the Thursday night on youtube.com forward slash Let's Drone Out
[10.0] Curry: and our lovely patrons help with the editing costs.
[12.0] (Patrons): These are...
[13.0] Curry: Wacky Wes
[14.0] (Patrons): Mikey Dread
[15.0] (Patrons): Art Faulkner
[17.0] (Patrons): Carlos Campos
[19.0] (Patrons): Thank you
[20.0] (Patrons): Now let the trees recover
[21.0] (Patrons): Let's Drone Out now
[51.29] Frank: Good evening and welcome to Let's Drone Out.
[54.29] Frank: Episode 287
[57.29] Frank: This evening we have with us a curry kitten
[61.29] Frank: Hello
[62.29] Frank: A Tony
[64.29] Frank: Bonjour
[66.29] Frank: N.J
[67.29] Frank: Hello everyone
[69.29] Frank: Adam Juniper who you may remember from earlier episodes
[73.29] Frank: Sorry
[75.29] Frank: And I'm Andrew Sashrank
[78.29] Frank: Jack may pop in at some point this evening but probably not
[83.29] Frank: We shall see
[85.29] Frank: But he has replaced himself with Adam as someone who can talk a lot
[91.29] Frank: And is holding his head in his hands
[97.29] NJ: And has allowed his hair to roll into three
[101.29] NJ: Which leads neatly onto the subject of
[106.29] NJ: Speaking of head and hands
[108.29] Frank: Yeah I mean I'm very happy that you're coming on
[111.29] Frank: Because people all over who keep asking me pretty much every week
[115.29] Frank: There's someone in the chat who says
[117.29] Frank: What about the new regulations?
[119.29] Frank: And I ignore them and tell them to go away
[122.29] Frank: Because they're long and there are many of them
[125.29] Frank: And I can't be bothered to read them
[127.29] Frank: Because I'm probably not going to go flying any time soon anyway
[130.29] Frank: So I'm not wasting my time reading them
[132.29] Frank: But apparently he's on you
[134.29] Curry: I did the live stream on Friday
[136.29] Curry: And people started asking me because you hadn't done it
[139.29] Curry: This is not good
[141.29] NJ: There was a moment
[143.29] NJ: When we were chatting in our little group chat
[147.29] NJ: Whenever it was a week or so ago
[149.29] NJ: Maybe longer than that
[150.29] NJ: Where I was unaware of the kind of situation regarding probing Frank into talking about this stuff
[156.29] NJ: So I just came straight in and said
[158.29] NJ: Frank you haven't talked about this for a while
[160.29] NJ: Why don't you talk about this?
[161.29] NJ: And there was
[162.29] NJ: You know when you can see someone typing
[164.29] NJ: It looked like he was typing for a good five, six minutes
[168.29] NJ: And I was like well this is going to be interesting
[170.29] NJ: But instead the word no just popped up
[174.29] NJ: If you could thought about that really really carefully
[179.29] Frank: Took a few drafts
[180.29] Frank: Yeah it did
[184.29] Frank: Yes
[186.29] Frank: And yeah
[187.29] Frank: And painless has been asking me to go on
[189.29] Frank: Because he's been asked by people all the time
[192.29] Frank: I think Winterblue and the quadratic people have been asked me to come on a few times
[200.29] Frank: Other people have been asked to come on
[202.29] Frank: Because I seem to have managed to make a name for myself
[205.29] Frank: From reading documents that are publicly available
[208.29] Frank: And then reading them to people
[210.29] Frank: But I've given up on that
[212.29] Frank: Because it's really quite painful
[215.29] Frank: But apparently you've put yourself through the agony
[219.29] Frank: And know something about it Adam
[222.29] Adam: I guess I may be not as much as this introduction would quite be
[227.29] Adam: I was asked by someone to write a little bit about the rules
[232.29] Adam: As they might face somebody English speaking
[235.29] Adam: This is the problem where I write
[238.29] Adam: Is that they're more concerned with how Google might view things
[242.29] Adam: Than necessarily you know how our audience might used to have been in the good old days of print
[249.29] Adam: So that means I have to consider the US, the UK, possibly Canada and possibly Australia
[255.29] Adam: As being reasonable, interesting and worthwhile places
[261.29] Adam: And the thing is though, the rules that's most as you can see is
[266.29] Adam: Don't be an idiot
[270.29] Adam: But they also largely mean
[273.29] Adam: Don't have a drone that weighs more than 250g
[277.29] Adam: Which is really disappointing
[280.29] Adam: Because that didn't used to be the problem did it
[283.29] Adam: It used to be that if you could not be an idiot
[286.29] Adam: You could risk a little bit more weight
[290.29] Adam: And then hour
[292.29] Adam: I assume we're only talking about hours
[295.29] Adam: As you know
[297.29] Adam: I don't know
[299.29] NJ: Let's make a start with ours
[301.29] Frank: Let's start with ours
[303.29] Frank: We'll grill Blue Owl on some other regulations next week maybe
[308.29] Frank: When she's not having a birthday
[313.29] Adam: Well the 250g thing is nicely universal, there's that
[317.29] Adam: In the US though it's ADS-B is the exciting new development as of this month
[323.29] Adam: There's an acronym, Vic, what does it mean?
[327.29] Adam: Thank God, what does it mean?
[329.29] Adam: It means having a little radio in your drone to scare off other drones or aircraft
[335.29] Curry: So it's radio conspicuity
[338.29] Curry: Yes, electronic conspicuity
[340.29] Curry: Thank you
[342.29] Curry: I thought I got away with it that time Frank
[344.29] Curry: But no, I didn't get it long enough
[348.29] Adam: And it will share data from the GPS
[353.29] Adam: And it will in 60 days as of the end of December, is that right?
[359.29] Adam: It becomes law
[361.29] Adam: And then there's 18 months compliance time for the drone companies and an additional 12 months compliance time
[369.29] Frank: Do you know if this is ADS-B in or ADS-B out?
[372.29] Frank: Because I know that there are quite a few drones already out
[376.29] Frank: Okay, because there's quite a few that already have it in
[379.29] Frank: They pick up the ADS-B signals from manned aircraft around them and say, oh you know
[386.29] Frank: It's getting a bit close, maybe you want to land or something
[390.29] Frank: But I don't know about ADS-B out
[393.29] Adam: Which would be a lot, in would be a lot easier wouldn't it?
[396.29] Adam: Because that's essentially sensible software
[400.29] Adam: But out is more, seems to me to be more likely to cause trouble
[406.29] Adam: Because it's going to be broadcasting a signal that is
[410.29] Adam: Could be, you know, from somebody who's just bought a drone in a shop like Cloud9 or a real one
[420.29] Frank: ADS-B is what, like FlightRadar24 and all of those kind of things use to pick up
[429.29] Frank: So they're not actually radar tracking an aircraft, it's just that the aircraft has got the GPS on it
[434.29] Frank: And everything else and it spits that out over this ADS-B frequency
[439.29] Frank: Just saying I am this aircraft, I am at this location, at this height, travelling at this speed
[444.29] Frank: That is me
[446.29] Adam: It's a far more modern and rational alternative to radar in the skies these days, isn't it?
[454.29] Adam: I mean, and you certainly wouldn't want drones firing radar all over the place
[459.29] Adam: So I guess also the FAA forcing people to do it will mean that it's relatively inexpensive in 18 months time
[471.29] Curry: So presumably the idea behind this is not so FlightRadar24 and out you can watch people's drones
[477.29] Curry: It's so any nearby full-size aircraft can say, oh, there's a drone down there
[483.29] Curry: And also suggest that anything above 250g must have a GPS fitted as well as this ADS-B malarkey
[492.29] Adam: Firstly, there's a zone, so the FAA will be able to define a list of places where it's not necessary
[504.29] Adam: Which is confusing, and I don't think they publish the list at all
[509.29] Curry: Who are the rules, unless we decide not to, sort of thing
[512.29] Adam: Yeah, perhaps later
[517.29] Adam: So I think it's going to be one of these things
[519.29] Adam: In the same way that here, we don't really know the classes yet in the rules
[528.29] Adam: So I guess we should get onto our rules so we can talk about how stupid they are
[533.29] Adam: Before we get too far into the slacking off the American one is obviously we really want this exciting new technology
[540.29] Adam: And once we've got it, you'll be able to fly at night and fly over roads
[544.29] Adam: So long as you don't hover over roads, as long as you just quickly get over a road
[550.29] Adam: That sort of thing, at the moment they have their part 107
[556.29] Adam: But I think they're actually trying to make life easier for drone pilots, believe it or not
[562.29] Adam: That is their stated goal
[566.29] Adam: That does not feel like how ours are
[569.29] Adam: So ours come from, what is it, the idea that you can divide aircraft up into classes
[574.29] Adam: Andrew knows this, right?
[576.29] Adam: You've all been through this, right?
[578.29] Frank: I mean there's the C nought to C1 to C2 to C3
[583.29] Frank: And they all require the electronic conspicuity
[586.29] Frank: Which is where, when it was first released a couple of years ago when I was still reading the stuff
[591.29] Frank: I came on here and was like, I'm not sure how they're expecting this to pan out
[597.29] Frank: Because at the moment, or at the time, the ADS-B electronic conspicuity stuff didn't really exist in any accessible way
[607.29] Frank: I mean at the time they were still, you know, probably a good hundred grams just for that unit
[614.29] Frank: And it cost a hundred pounds
[618.29] Adam: I'm going to look like an idiot here, but I didn't actually see it, you know, in the draft I read of that
[623.29] Adam: Is it definitely in there?
[626.29] Frank: I'm pretty sure it was in the C nought, C1, C2, all of those
[631.29] Frank: I'm pretty sure it was in there, but it's, so it's for new, there is still kind of a, or at least it was
[637.29] Adam: If you were to get it, because of course nothing's actually got it
[641.29] Frank: When I last read it, it was that there was a transition period where new things could be released without it
[650.29] Frank: But I think that was up to like 2021, so
[654.29] Adam: Yeah, it's December 2021 transition period
[659.29] Frank: So DJI could release a new Mavic whatever now and it wouldn't need to have it
[665.29] Frank: But if they released a new Mavic or whatever in, you know, a year's time, then it would have to have one of these classifications
[676.29] Frank: And therefore it would need the electronic cosmocurity
[679.29] Frank: But they can continue selling all the models that they have on the market now for quite a while
[685.29] Frank: Yeah, and that'll be fine and you'll be able to own them for even longer
[691.29] Frank: So that's, that's kind of how, that was how I understood it when I was reading it through a couple of years ago
[698.29] Frank: When it was still being kind of confirmed
[702.29] Frank: I don't know if you've read anything more recent that maybe changes that
[707.29] Adam: No, and I'm, I do often get things wrong now
[714.29] Curry: Just to interject with you guys, Clive is making a point here that if we have to carry them then all general aviation should have to have it
[721.29] Curry: Are we saying that drones are now going to be more regulated than actual full size flying machines with people in them?
[729.29] Frank: The kind of justification for that is that general aviation has for many, many, many years had see and avoid as their kind of safety principle
[742.29] Frank: And the problem with the drones is that when they're small, like, you know, the ones that we use, they're hard to see
[749.29] Frank: And so then the, that main principle instead of see and avoid becomes sense and avoid
[756.29] Frank: And therefore that's where the electronic cosmocurity comes in is that because you can't see it in the sky or against the background of the ground or whatever
[764.29] Frank: Then you need to have it beaming out and letting you know that it's there even before you see it
[771.29] Frank: That's the kind of idea there
[774.29] Frank: Like, if you can't see a hot air balloon, then you've got bigger problems than you're looking at your ADS-B system
[783.29] Frank: Whereas if you can't see...
[784.29] Curry: I've just loved recent accident reports to say this air balloon came out of nowhere, Governor
[789.29] Curry: I don't know where it came from
[791.29] Frank: Exactly, but if you don't see a 250 quad when you're flying along the the the treetops in a helicopter, then, you know, that's kind of fair enough
[801.29] Curry: But not that you guys read the rules, but the obvious point is, like, we go to 400 feet in general aviation, 500 feet above, therefore
[810.29] NJ: Oh, that I agree with
[812.29] NJ: They're operating in very different, or they should be operating in very different air spaces, really
[817.29] NJ: By the same token, if you've got a GA aircraft at 50 feet above treeline anywhere other than on short final for a runway, then they've got bigger problems
[828.29] NJ: Because they're about to hit stuff
[830.29] NJ: So, I mean, there is...
[832.29] Adam: They're shedding ending at ends and housings all over people's housing estates
[837.29] NJ: Well, quite, yeah
[839.29] NJ: In the same way, if you've got that separation generally between commercial and general aviation, both in terms of space and in terms of height
[847.29] NJ: I mean, a lot of GA aircraft won't get to the same ceilings as commercial aircraft will
[852.29] NJ: But there's still a, you know
[855.29] NJ: There's reasons for separation for these things and
[858.29] NJ: Yeah, it's an interesting source
[861.29] NJ: I mean, the other thing, if these systems are going to be integrated heavily into GA stuff
[867.29] NJ: There's a much bigger cost to GA, right?
[869.29] NJ: In terms of either entirely new systems or updating existing systems to be able to read this information
[878.29] NJ: Or is that... Do you know anything about that?
[881.29] Adam: Well, it's an existing technology that's just going to be there more of it, isn't it?
[887.29] Adam: But yeah, they'll have to start choosing to fit it
[891.29] Adam: And I guess, how often do you do a retrofit of everything?
[895.29] Adam: It's quite an airliner that gets a lot of use, which admittedly, that's none of them this year
[902.29] Adam: You get a good looking over every few years, don't they?
[908.29] Adam: They do
[910.29] Adam: A lot of maintenance and I'm sure fitting in a little extra boxes
[916.29] NJ: I think it's more the point for me is that anything in aviation, should it be the change of a single bolt
[926.29] NJ: Would then require not only an enormous amount of testing paperwork, red tape
[933.29] NJ: Along with then the fitting, the downtime, the maintenance procedures, the instructions inside
[942.29] NJ: I mean, obviously anything that changes of any kind in aviation is always hideously expensive
[948.29] NJ: So how accommodating it will be from that side, I'm not so sure
[952.29] NJ: Which is why I think our side of things will get the majority of the bullying
[956.29] Adam: Well, I think we'll feel like that anyway, because we always do
[960.57] Adam: But I think it's worth remembering that a lot of the changes in the rules actually provide a bit more freedom for some folks
[970.57] Adam: So if you're getting the under 250 grams, the C0 category, or you're getting what used to be called the Mavic Mini
[983.57] Adam: What is it? It's just called the Mini, isn't it, DJ? Our Mini 2
[987.57] Frank: With 249 written on the side
[990.57] Adam: 249 gram 4K aircraft is at the moment at least something that you can fly over people now under the new rules
[1003.57] Adam: Rather than 50 meters, because the C0 category and A1 category of aircraft
[1012.57] Adam: Sorry, A1 for C0
[1017.57] Adam: See, there are just too many categories, but C0 for class of things
[1022.57] Adam: Although it's not technically C0, of course, as we all know, because nothing has actually achieved any of the things
[1028.57] Adam: It's a C0 transitional, which everything will be for a little bit
[1035.57] Adam: But that is a category which you can now fly over people and you can fly in town and over your garden
[1043.57] Adam: Even if you live near people that you weren't allowed to do before
[1048.57] Adam: It can still make you a dick
[1051.57] Adam: And you can definitely piss off your neighbors because you have to think about the things in the way that you might not have thought about them before
[1058.57] Adam: Because in before, you could just go, oh, I'm not allowed to fly here
[1062.57] Adam: But now you might be able to take that. I could go and take off in my garden
[1067.57] Adam: And then I imagine my paranoid 80-year-old old lady neighbor will be banging on the door
[1075.57] Adam: Assuming that I am attacking with some sort of evil robot
[1081.57] Adam: But at least it was my choice to do that
[1084.57] Adam: That's the difference
[1087.57] Adam: The problem is that as soon as I cross that 250-gram line
[1092.57] Adam: Things start to change quite quickly in terms of how near
[1097.57] Adam: Then you've got your 50 meters from people again
[1101.57] Adam: And 2 kilograms or 4 kilograms if it's got its sea approval score
[1107.57] Adam: It's going to be quite a significant threshold and it will give you 150 meters
[1113.57] Adam: And you won't be able to fly over industrial areas or
[1119.57] Adam: The list basically includes anywhere you might consider flying other than in the middle of a huge estate of land that you personally own
[1131.57] Adam: So an Inspire is something you should sell quickly now
[1136.57] Frank: Unrelated? Do you want to plug your eBay listing for your Inspire?
[1145.62] NJ: Yeah, just continue to type it up
[1147.62] NJ: Hasn't Tony got one of those?
[1149.62] Frank: Tony just bought one, yeah
[1152.62] Frank: Gladly so
[1154.62] Frank: There's some more positive news for anyone that hasn't tuned out
[1159.62] Frank: Wings and Wheels has been confirmed that it's planning to go ahead
[1166.62] Frank: So, you know, that is good news
[1172.62] NJ: I shall be there
[1174.62] Frank: The 26th and 27th June 2021, wingsandwheels.net
[1179.62] Frank: That's wingsletternwheels.net
[1183.62] NJ: Like rock and the roll
[1185.62] NJ: Yeah
[1186.62] Curry: Now, although Tony, who's decided to go off in a sock, has posted, I'm flying my own spot
[1193.62] Curry: When you've got something like this where the rules seem difficult
[1201.62] Curry: Does the authorities envisage the fact that people are just going to say, well, sod that
[1207.62] Curry: I'm just going to carry on and just not being idiot and come get me copper if you can
[1214.62] Curry: Or I'm just going to paint $249g on all my big quads and see if that works
[1220.62] Curry: Will they have scales with them or, you know
[1224.62] Adam: It is my perception that if you carry around your, you know, if you do your registration
[1230.62] Adam: And pay you £9 a year, which is obviously of some interest
[1235.62] Adam: To pay for much more than £9 a year it will have cost to set up this scheme
[1242.62] Adam: Then if you waive that document at your average copper, if they catch you, you'll be fine
[1252.62] Adam: The weighing is not going to be, and I didn't say that out loud, by the way
[1260.62] Curry: But seriously
[1261.62] Curry: You can read the disclaimer, so it's all down to Adam, it's his fault
[1265.62] Adam: This is all just guessing, but if you were to show up, yeah, I love the disclaimer
[1271.62] Adam: If you had, say, a Mavic Air, which is what, 450g sort of territory
[1277.62] Adam: Can't remember, it's been a few months
[1280.62] Adam: Do you remember summer?
[1282.62] Adam: I did go out of the walls at some point with one of the
[1285.62] Adam: Okay, so I do remember flying a Mavic Air crew
[1292.62] Adam: Again, it's one of these things where you think, why would you need anything heavier ever
[1296.62] Adam: But it does weigh more than 250g
[1300.62] Adam: But it doesn't really feel much more than 250g
[1303.62] Adam: And I think it probably still weighs less than my phone
[1306.62] Adam: So I just feel like people aren't going to care
[1310.62] Adam: Bigness and weight is going to feel different to respect
[1316.62] Adam: Like if you show you've put some effort into complying with rules
[1321.62] Adam: That's going to work better
[1323.62] Adam: And there are going to obviously be crossovers
[1325.62] Adam: There are going to be situations like if you're on national trust land
[1328.62] Adam: You can be confident that somebody's going to come and try and stop you
[1332.62] Adam: Because they've been extremely clear how they feel about anything newfangled and drony
[1340.62] Adam: Being flown over their land unless you pay for an expensive filming license
[1344.62] Adam: Because that's how they make their money now
[1347.62] Adam: And also because it's an organisation largely run by old people who don't like new stuff
[1357.62] Frank: Views expressed, others, not ours, don't do us
[1365.62] NJ: I'm sure I read somewhere that the 250g thing was more about its sort of danger
[1372.62] NJ: Wasn't there something to do with this danger of terminal velocity in terms of the damage it can do to a human
[1378.62] Adam: Yeah, yeah, those are, yes
[1380.62] Adam: But I don't disagree in terms of them being actually presenting a danger
[1387.62] Adam: It doesn't take a lot of weight to present a danger to a person
[1390.62] Adam: And I'm sure the rules were being devised quite rationally
[1395.62] Frank: What it's come from, and that's where the speed limit came from as well
[1400.62] Frank: Is a study about what you can have full on your head and you get away with it
[1406.62] Frank: And that's basically 80 joules of an impact on your head
[1411.62] Frank: Is what you can kind of safely get away with for most people
[1415.62] Frank: Which is a point that was made in the Air Accident Investigation Bureau report
[1422.62] Frank: Of the air speeder that was released this week
[1426.62] Frank: Where, you know, the 80 joules is the safe limit
[1430.62] Frank: And this impact at Goodwood a couple of years ago where it just kind of disappeared up into the sky
[1436.62] Frank: And flipped over and came back down again
[1438.62] Frank: Was in the region of 20,000 joules
[1440.62] Frank: So, you know, they weren't quite happy
[1443.62] Curry: It's kind of like dropping a Ford Fiesta from summer height, wasn't it, onto somebody?
[1449.62] NJ: I'm pretty sure my missus has a punch of over 80 joules and I'm still here
[1456.62] NJ: You have to measure it next time you upset me
[1459.62] NJ: Yeah, just setting up this elaborate measuring rig
[1463.62] NJ: And then just stand there and say something upsetting
[1466.62] NJ: Yeah, I'll let you know how that goes
[1468.62] Frank: Yeah, next time Jack comes on
[1472.62] Frank: We will go through a bit more of the air speeder report
[1476.62] Frank: I want Jack to be here for that
[1478.62] Frank: Mainly because of the photos of some of the soldering
[1480.62] Frank: I want his reaction caught on stream
[1483.62] Frank: Because it'll be necessary
[1487.62] Frank: Yeah, there we go
[1489.62] Adam: Good trailer for something that we don't know what's going to happen there
[1495.62] Adam: I assume that Jack is still normally surrounded by soldering equipment, that kind of thing when...
[1501.62] Frank: Yeah, definitely
[1504.62] Frank: This episode was recorded in front of a live online audience
[1507.62] Frank: Downloaded and edited to make sense when it played audio only
[1511.62] Frank: Censored to please the iTunes people, hosted on the internet
[1514.62] Frank: Forwarded through to your podcast provider
[1516.62] Frank: Downloaded, playing on your device
[1518.62] Frank: And is now playing in your ears
[1520.62] Frank: All thanks to our Patreons
[1522.62] Frank: Consider joining them and you'll also get other online benefits
[1525.62] Frank: Find out more at patreon.com
[1528.62] Frank: Let's drone out
[1530.62] Curry: So when they were talking about these ages ago
[1532.62] Curry: When they did the first sort of draft ISA
[1536.62] Curry: Whatever, with the C0 things
[1538.62] Curry: They also talked about a speed limit in meters per second
[1542.62] Curry: Is that anything in them now? Do we have a speed limit?
[1546.62] Adam: Yeah, it's still in there
[1548.62] Adam: And I've been struggling for the last few minutes to get the annoying thing to pop up
[1553.62] Adam: But one of you has probably got it on your screen, haven't you?
[1557.62] Adam: But they...
[1559.62] Curry: All of us are refusing to look at them out of...
[1561.62] Adam: On principle
[1563.62] Adam: As I understand it, you are considered to be...
[1568.62] Adam: So to be in the sort of lowest category, the safest category, the A1
[1577.62] Adam: You also have to come below a certain speed
[1581.62] Adam: But that speed can be chosen by the machine
[1585.62] Adam: So if you set your drone to safe mode or no speed or what have you
[1590.62] Adam: And leave it at that, that's fine
[1593.62] Adam: And if you then switch it to fast and the fast pushes it into a new thing
[1598.62] Adam: Yes, this chart
[1602.62] Adam: Then once you've closed it, it's very hard to find again
[1607.62] Adam: Then as I understand it, you don't need to be...
[1613.62] Adam: You have the next step of ID or the A2C
[1618.62] Adam: Just because your machine can achieve the speed is only if you've switched it on in the settings
[1625.62] Adam: If that makes sense
[1627.62] Adam: Or it's usually a flight mode on a DJI drone
[1631.62] Adam: I'm trying to imagine why you'd have a slow mode on something else
[1636.62] Frank: Interesting words
[1638.62] Frank: There's a big table of information
[1641.62] Adam: So you can see here...
[1643.62] Adam: My favorite thing on this chart for the classes is...
[1648.62] Adam: So in the A1 section, which is the safe things
[1653.62] Adam: So the flight where you're not really going to need anything other than an operator ID
[1659.62] Adam: It can be privately built
[1661.62] Adam: It can be a legacy aircraft that was placed on the market before the 1st of January 2023
[1667.62] Adam: And it can be C0 toy or C0 not a toy
[1673.62] Adam: They've not come up with a better way of describing it than that for the legislation
[1678.62] Frank: Well, I think that's probably because there is a whole load of regulations anyway about toys
[1686.62] Frank: Toys are like one of the most regulated products on the market apart from like medical devices
[1693.62] Frank: So I'm not entirely surprised that there's going to be a whole thing out there
[1698.62] Frank: Probably also about data protection of the user, i.e. the child
[1703.62] Frank: Because that's a big thing at the moment as well
[1705.62] Frank: So I imagine that's what tied in there
[1708.62] Adam: Yeah, and it's worth noting that the DJI Mavic Mini and Mini 2 are not a toy
[1716.62] Adam: But still down here paperwork-wise
[1720.62] Frank: Therefore, the pilot has to be at least 12 to fly it solo
[1727.62] Adam: Yeah
[1729.62] Adam: And to be 12, if you're going to be 12, your flyer ID has to be sort for you by your responsible adult
[1738.62] Adam: So there's an operator ID and a flyer ID
[1743.62] Adam: Because the system of just having one person isn't annoying enough paperwork-wise
[1750.62] Adam: So I don't know if you've applied for your operator IDs, you obviously should have done by now
[1758.62] Adam: But you may recall that you were given, you got yourself an operator ID which I think lasts
[1767.62] Adam: Is that the £9 a year one?
[1769.62] Adam: Yeah, so the different number which is your flyer ID which applies to an aircraft
[1775.62] Adam: No, that's the weirdest thing about it is the flyer ID still applies to multiple aircraft
[1779.62] Adam: You can still put that on more than one machine
[1782.62] Adam: You don't have to apply for a different flyer ID
[1784.62] Adam: It seems like it's going to be like a registration plate
[1788.62] Frank: So the flyer ID is the one that you have to get every three or four years or something
[1793.62] Frank: For having done the online test that's like, should you fly into people's faces
[1799.62] Frank: Or should you fly in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere
[1802.62] Frank: Multiple question, pick the right one
[1804.62] Frank: And that gives you your flyer ID
[1807.62] Adam: It's alright now, I can fly over their heads
[1809.62] Adam: The officer's not into their faces, over their heads is fine
[1813.62] Adam: Yeah
[1814.62] Frank: And then it's the operator ID that you have to get every year by paying £9 and there's no test
[1820.62] Frank: For reasons that someone has decided
[1826.62] Adam: It's because the FAA's system seemed relatively rational
[1831.62] Adam: So there was some level of competition to make it worse in terms of organisation
[1837.62] Adam: I think, I don't know, it just seems strange to have to have two separate IDs
[1843.62] Adam: No, the real reason for it, I think, is that one is
[1848.62] Adam: They want somebody, the one who owns it to be old enough to be responsible enough to own it
[1854.62] Adam: And the person who's flying it to have been old enough to do a fairly straightforward test
[1862.62] Frank: And to have read enough and understood what they're reading enough to answer very simple questions
[1868.62] Curry: Yeah
[1869.62] Curry: I think the good news is
[1871.62] Curry: This is not legal advice, but should you get arrested and taken to court for breaking the rules
[1876.62] Curry: You could present their rules as pretty good defence against, like, I don't understand this
[1881.62] Curry: And nobody reasonably could expect me to, because it's all just bollocks written down
[1885.62] Adam: Yeah, I didn't happen to have a set of scales with me in the field
[1890.62] Adam: And so this seemed like 249g and not 3kg
[1897.62] Frank: The man on the bottom of this
[1900.62] NJ: The thing that winds me up, I think, the bit that grinds my gears, although most of it does
[1907.62] NJ: When it comes to this stuff is, especially in aviation, so many rules are written as a result of incident
[1917.62] NJ: Something happens, it's very clear about what went wrong, it's investigated, it's dealt with
[1922.62] NJ: The rule is put in place and then that hole is patched
[1925.62] NJ: And you end up with a shape of what a rule needs to be for the safety of everyone and what have you
[1929.62] NJ: Now, this kind of method, although in aviation, as I've always said before, a lot of aviation's, the handbook's written in blood
[1938.62] NJ: A lot of that's been from bad things happening that we've ended up with one of the safest forms of transportation in the world
[1945.62] NJ: We're dealing with something that requires so much speculation because there is such a lack of incident
[1951.62] NJ: And there seems to be so many people that don't necessarily know much about the subject
[1956.62] NJ: That are writing the speculative rules for ideas about things that haven't happened yet
[1962.62] NJ: And it makes, and completely to the point that Kerry was making, it makes for a set of rules which are so grey areas
[1970.62] NJ: With so much that are so open to interpretation at many angles that you can find a way to start finding loopholes to place these in your favour
[1980.62] NJ: That were designed to maybe stop you doing something that hasn't happened yet
[1985.62] Curry: It is the special implementation of that old aunt of yours saying you could have someone's eye out with that
[1991.62] Curry: The speculation that these bad things are going to happen
[1996.62] Curry: And, you know, we can use the constant thing about like, you know, how many people get killed every year with cricket balls or playing rugby and stuff like that
[2004.62] Curry: And these are things of courage
[2006.62] Curry: Yes, tea cozies, scarves, socks, all these things have killed people every year
[2013.62] Curry: Drones, as far as we know, it's pretty safe
[2016.62] Curry: Even though there's no rules about them
[2019.62] Curry: How can we make it safer so less people than zero get killed
[2024.62] Adam: To go to sort of NJ's point, like, air travel is incredibly safe
[2033.62] Adam: Partly because of the fact it has a very similar legal system to the rest of society
[2039.62] Adam: You know, we look at what went wrong and we have a go at fixing it and all the rest of it
[2043.62] Adam: But mostly because the people who travel on planes are relatively well off and don't like dying
[2051.62] Adam: And rich people in general go to a lot of effort to stay alive
[2056.62] Adam: They're much less bothered about the sort of people who drive around the Azda car park in the middle of the night in a beaten up old car doing donuts
[2065.62] Adam: So, you know, there's some elements of safety coming more from the fact that the sort of people involved are just a bit too boring
[2077.62] Adam: To cause trouble or to go out of their way to save themselves
[2083.62] Adam: And I think there's a risk with drones that, you know, you're always going to have some people who want to have a bit of fun, aren't you
[2092.62] Adam: Because some of them are kids, because they are quite appealing to kids
[2097.62] Adam: Leo is very excited by the wooden wonder still, even though that's not been touched or been given its fourth motor back for a very long time
[2109.62] NJ: I mean, to your point, Adam, in the same way we assume that everyone, you know, outside our houses is sticking exactly to the speed limit
[2118.62] NJ: Very well defined road rules that are out there
[2122.62] Frank: Yeah, that's that's the other point is like what's what's the point in having rules like either it's so that you can enforce it
[2129.62] Frank: Also, it tells people what they should be doing. And at the moment, I was that's another reason why I've not bothered reading them for a while
[2138.62] Frank: Is because, you know, they were all kind of coming to a conclusion. There was going to be like one document. These are the rules. This is where everything is
[2146.62] Frank: And, you know, I was wanted to make sure that, you know, we all knew where that was going and and could voice concerns as it as that was kind of being developed
[2155.62] Frank: But now it's kind of got to that point. And but it's so long and complicated because it's got all the little edge cases everywhere
[2163.62] Frank: And they've made it feel maybe a bit more complicated than it needs to be. They've also then had to write a load of documents also explain it
[2172.62] Frank: And so then you still got if you look at this, yes, which are terrible and inconsistent and generally unhelpful
[2184.62] Frank: And if you look in the description again, there's there's a set of links there, which are a subset of all the various links that are now describing the new rules
[2193.62] Frank: And they've replaced like three documents that were, you know, long and painful with one document that's long and painful and lots of other documents that don't really match up very well
[2206.62] Adam: So when the process started, we were at least going to get one piece of paper that let us fly anywhere in Europe when we were on holiday, that kind of thing
[2215.62] Adam: It's very dangerous, dangerous, sorry
[2218.62] Adam: I'm not going to get too far down this route
[2220.62] Adam: Suffice to say that now I still have to pay for the document, but it doesn't do me any use when I'm abroad
[2228.62] Curry: Now occasionally there are rules that are brought in that just sort of seek to make people stop breaking some of the rules so badly
[2236.62] Curry: For example, according to the two speed awareness course I've done for the car, just to show how well it sinks in
[2242.62] Curry: Both times I've told that whenever there's a 20 mile an hour limit, the authorities aren't expecting people to stick to 20
[2249.62] Curry: But they expect them to be under 30, which is going to cut down on death because under 30 is basically an undefing
[2255.62] Curry: So I suppose the theory is there that they're just introducing these rules just to make people give up in despair
[2261.62] Adam: But your 86 was considered inappropriate
[2265.62] Adam: What?
[2266.62] Adam: Well you had to get on the course, you were saying that you wouldn't have been doing more than 20, right?
[2272.62] Curry: Oh no
[2273.62] Curry: Possibly more than 30
[2275.62] Curry: You have to be, on a 30 limit I was doing 30 something
[2282.62] Curry: If you break it too much then they won't put you on their speed awareness course, they'll just fine you
[2288.62] Curry: Which is what they really want to do, presumably
[2293.62] Curry: Well, it would be less hassle just to pay the fine
[2298.62] Adam: That's how most people feel about those
[2302.62] Adam: I must say that driving fines against the CAA fines, the CAA fines seem to be £1,000 or £5,000 is that right?
[2311.62] Adam: Or is that the FAA ones?
[2314.62] Adam: I've certainly seen some really big numbers from different aviation authorities researching this
[2319.62] NJ: They usually mean it when they put their fines down
[2322.62] Adam: Yeah, well that's what I was thinking, they're a lot higher than you get for doing a bit quick on the road
[2330.62] Adam: Or running over a child I don't think
[2335.62] Adam: Just testing to see if you're still listening
[2338.62] Frank: Fraser in the chat has said all this talking is entertaining and cathartic but ultimately pointless
[2343.62] Frank: Right to your MP!
[2347.62] Frank: And CCN Grant Chaps
[2351.62] Adam: Is Grant Chaps your MP?
[2354.62] Adam: How disappointing for you
[2357.62] Frank: No, he's the Minister for Transport isn't he?
[2361.62] NJ: It's either a master stroke, I'm not sure if it is a master stroke actually
[2366.62] NJ: The bit that you're complaining about is the lack of clarity or definition of the rules
[2372.62] NJ: And that's a very hard thing to complain about because you're not specifically complaining about a rule
[2377.62] NJ: You're just complaining that you don't know what it means
[2381.62] Adam: No, it's alright, I can tell you
[2383.62] Adam: We can go and page our way through all of the incidents
[2387.62] Adam: The problem is that it means a lot
[2390.62] Adam: There are so many individual cases
[2393.62] Adam: It would be a lot easier to have the rules laid out in a much clearer set of tiers
[2400.62] Adam: One solution that would make life easier straight away would be to remove the temporary cases from the chart
[2412.96] Frank: By 2022, 2023, transition...
[2418.96] Adam: And put that in a separate table and say this is true now, this will be true then
[2425.96] Adam: Two separate headings
[2428.96] Adam: So you can look at one and then if you're really interested in thinking about the future you can look at the other one
[2434.96] Adam: Or better still, not set a set of rules that you're going to change two years later
[2440.96] Adam: For no good reason
[2442.96] Frank: I don't know, how are they expecting to earn their pay if they don't keep changing the rules?
[2448.96] Frank: If you've got a team of people to change rules, you've got to keep them busy
[2454.96] Adam: But it just feels like someone in the current law making hierarchies
[2459.96] Adam: Has sort of gone, technology changes doesn't it?
[2463.96] Adam: And laws take quite a while to change and it's a real fact
[2467.96] Adam: So we'll make more effort once and then they'll be fine for a while
[2473.96] Adam: We'll have the law ready
[2475.96] Frank: I think this was kind of how it changed
[2479.96] Frank: Basically the original ANO was just saying, don't fly on safely
[2487.96] Frank: If you fly on safely we'll tell you off
[2490.96] Frank: And then they released all the other documents that weren't regulations but were just guidelines
[2497.96] Frank: This is how to fly safely for a glider, for a model aircraft, for whatever else
[2504.96] Frank: And now they've tried to kind of make that into law so that they can actually, I guess, enforce it a bit better
[2513.96] Frank: Because it's quite hard to enforce
[2515.96] Frank: And overall, this is the rule that's very airy-fairy but this is the guidance that's not a law
[2524.96] Frank: And now they're trying to kind of make the law more specific
[2528.96] Frank: But then you end up with that issue of you having to have every little edge case
[2535.96] Frank: Or they just get rid of the edge cases and just let people do some things and not have everything in there
[2543.96] Adam: It seems like you could probably rationalise it all with just the 250 gram line
[2553.34] Adam: Or maybe even knock that up to 500 gram and say, anything below that, fine, fly it around the garden, you know, whatever
[2562.34] Adam: Anything above that, do an exam
[2567.34] Adam: Leave it at that, you know, proper exam, like where they've checked
[2572.34] Frank: I don't think Tony would be happy with that
[2577.34] Frank: I would have thought maybe something like if it could impart, if they did go for the 80 joules, they say
[2585.34] Frank: If there's a reasonable chance of this imparting 80 joules to a human being, then don't do it
[2596.34] Frank: And then it either has to be small or far away
[2601.34] Frank: It might take some explaining, but this one is small, that one is far away and that's how it works
[2610.34] Adam: I still can't get it, Ted
[2614.34] NJ: But isn't a lot of this also supposed to have into consideration, risk assessment?
[2621.34] NJ: It's a fair thing to say, of which there really isn't
[2625.34] Adam: That seems to be the way they've structured it, to try and make it risk a C2
[2631.34] Adam: So that's the other thing, the table that we were looking at earlier with the C0, not a toy, C0, C1, C2, C3 and interim versions
[2645.34] Adam: And C4
[2648.34] Adam: Explosive
[2650.34] Adam: I know, which is a shame
[2656.34] NJ: It's the last category you want to give a drone, is it?
[2659.34] Adam: I know, and it's that really big one
[2663.34] Frank: This is my C4 drone, running cover
[2669.34] Adam: And then you look a bit closer, and A1, A2, A3 are only the open category
[2677.34] Adam: Those of us who haven't done too many tests, then you've got the specific
[2686.34] Adam: You've got two other categories actually, haven't you, from the CAA
[2691.34] Adam: One of which you need the new, what's it called now, not PFCO
[2698.34] Adam: But there's an actual exam with a test
[2703.71] Adam: And the next category, just a bit, ring up the CAA, ask nicely
[2711.71] Adam: They've not even really sorted out the rules, so far as
[2715.71] Adam: But things where you're going to fight
[2718.71] Frank: Isn't there one in the middle where they've got basically some template risk assessments
[2724.71] Frank: And you just have to fill in the template
[2726.71] Frank: And then they go, yes, we've written these, so therefore they're fine
[2730.71] Frank: And if you sign it, then it's good
[2732.71] Frank: And then the other one is for when you're coming up with something that no one's ever seen before
[2736.71] Frank: And therefore it doesn't fit the templates
[2738.71] Frank: Then you have to write your own one from scratch
[2741.71] Frank: Which is what I think basically part of the PFCO has been, right?
[2746.71] Frank: Is that you have to write your operation manual
[2748.71] Adam: Yeah, no, it's actually a much better way of doing it than the PFCO
[2752.71] Adam: Because of the template risk assessments
[2754.71] Adam: And because there are only really two of them, so long as you're doing that
[2760.71] Adam: And you don't have to do the operations manual anymore
[2766.71] Frank: Because I think they got bored of reading the operations manual
[2769.71] Frank: That was mostly the same but slightly different
[2772.71] Frank: And now they've just published like this
[2775.71] Frank: Okay, fine, stop making us read them
[2778.71] Frank: Here's a standard one
[2779.71] Adam: Because everyone was getting them for free
[2782.71] Adam: Everyone was getting them for free anyway
[2784.71] Adam: From wherever they did the exam
[2788.71] NJ: I think it's the risk assessment as well
[2790.71] NJ: Every risk assessment I've ever looked at usually has a fairly strong data point
[2796.71] NJ: By which to start things off in terms of saying this has happened and this has happened
[2801.71] NJ: And that's very much part of the risk assessment moving forward
[2806.71] NJ: But that's the point, there's no real data point
[2811.71] NJ: They're in the first place, or one very much in the favour of drones
[2816.71] Frank: I see what you mean, because usually you're doing it by
[2819.71] Frank: There's one accident every 30,000 flights or whatever
[2823.71] NJ: Right, it's a figure that's data that's part of it, I think
[2826.71] NJ: That never seems to get much of a mention, does it?
[2829.71] NJ: No, they don't like to think about it like that, no
[2832.71] Adam: They'd much rather think about it in terms of the things they understand
[2836.71] Adam: They're 50 metres from a human or above something expensive like a human
[2844.71] Curry: Then they get back to looking at this, they can come back and say
[2847.71] Curry: We've watched 1,000 YouTube videos and I average people crash four times per battery
[2852.71] Curry: So these are death traps
[2855.71] Adam: That is a reasonable assessment
[2860.71] Adam: One of the things that is nice and is worthy of praise
[2865.71] Adam: Is that they've gone out of their way to remove the commercial versus hobbyist distinction in the rules
[2875.71] Adam: Which I sort of think is nice, because it means that anyone who is doing it as a hobby
[2880.71] Adam: Has some idea of what they're doing and is potentially going to get themselves the A2C of C level
[2888.71] Adam: Which you can get about 50 quid
[2893.71] Adam: Can do a few cheap jobs, whereas in the past you'd have had to do a 1,000 pound PFCO
[2899.71] Adam: And renew it all the time
[2902.71] Adam: And also explain for no good reason what the work was commercial
[2909.71] Adam: Whereas if you just pretended it wasn't commercial
[2913.71] Adam: You wouldn't have to do your PFCO
[2916.71] Adam: And you could get away with it a bit
[2918.71] Adam: Which didn't seem very fair
[2924.31] Adam: In the US at the moment, for example, if you put something up on your YouTube channel
[2929.31] Adam: And the FAA see it
[2931.31] Adam: And you earn 0.01 dollars in royalty
[2936.31] Adam: That trips you into the commercial section
[2939.31] Adam: And then you have to go and sit your exam
[2942.31] Adam: Again, they're trying to get out of it
[2944.31] Adam: But you'd have to go and sit your exam at the bloody airport
[2950.31] Frank: Yeah, I think the idea was that you're more likely to push it beyond where you really should be
[2960.31] Frank: If there's money on the line
[2962.31] Frank: If someone's going to pay you 250 pounds for getting this bit of video
[2967.31] Frank: You're more likely to stay up there even as the winds start picking up
[2973.31] Frank: And it starts raining and the crowd gets a bit closer
[2977.31] Frank: And a child wanders by and everything else
[2980.31] Frank: Whereas if you've not got 250 pounds on the line
[2983.31] Frank: When it starts getting a bit breezy
[2986.31] Frank: Then you're probably more likely to just land it and not risk it
[2991.31] NJ: I've just found your price on human life, Randy
[2997.31] Frank: Well, you know, I think that was the reasoning
[3003.31] Adam: I don't dispute that that was the reasoning
[3005.31] Adam: But it always seemed very unfair
[3008.31] Adam: Because it made it much harder to break out
[3012.31] Adam: And we're all meant to be breaking out these days
[3015.31] Frank: Yeah, I think also you don't want to
[3018.31] Curry: Did the PIF go?
[3019.31] Curry: Had more reason to really get the money
[3022.31] Curry: Because they had to bring it in to keep renewing it
[3024.31] Curry: And write their silly manuals and stuff
[3028.31] Frank: Yeah, I think it did also make it quite clear
[3031.31] Frank: With the number of people who have like smashed up a retreat in the rain
[3035.31] Frank: Because they didn't really know what they were doing
[3037.31] Frank: I think it kind of made it quite clear that it wasn't the be-all and end-all
[3042.31] Frank: And the massive problem there
[3045.31] Adam: It is hard to say no to someone when they're paying
[3048.31] Adam: But you can do it
[3050.31] Adam: I have been in the situation where you are
[3053.31] Adam: Yes, but it's raining
[3055.31] Adam: And I'm sorry we're all here
[3057.31] Adam: But you don't want any rain in the shot
[3060.31] Adam: And I don't want it to fall out of the sky
[3063.31] Adam: So we're just going to wait
[3065.31] Curry: Interestingly, they always say stuff like
[3067.31] Curry: We can take the rain off in post, carry on
[3074.31] Adam: Yeah, no, I've not met anyone who can do that yet
[3077.31] Adam: But if they could, that would be fantastic
[3080.31] Adam: I don't think it's a worthwhile task anymore
[3084.31] Adam: I do think that... Sorry, go
[3087.31] NJ: Where was I going with this?
[3089.31] NJ: I still think that the bigger problem
[3092.31] NJ: Which it's just kind of been accepted and a little bit forgotten about
[3095.31] NJ: And I think this is the source of frustration
[3097.31] NJ: Maybe for a lot of people in our world
[3100.31] NJ: It feels like we're not really that represented
[3103.31] NJ: In what we do with drones versus
[3106.31] NJ: Even the kind of thing that you see
[3109.31] NJ: Sort of visualised in rule books
[3112.31] NJ: As they're being written and how they're talked about
[3116.31] NJ: Even then you're seeing a very vague understanding
[3119.31] NJ: From the rule writers of what these things are
[3122.31] NJ: But it's very much the idea of that
[3124.31] NJ: It's sort of a phantom thing with a camera under it
[3127.31] NJ: It's kind of the extent of the specification
[3130.31] NJ: For the market they're trying to write these rules around
[3132.31] NJ: As opposed to really knowing all the different sectors
[3135.31] NJ: And what they do
[3136.31] NJ: And the fact that a lot of guys that fly our drones
[3139.31] NJ: Are nowhere near the heights that the phantoms are sitting
[3142.31] NJ: When they're going up
[3143.31] NJ: Or when any of these drones are operating at commercial levels
[3146.31] NJ: Where it treats up high or lower if you're racing gates
[3149.31] NJ: You're three feet off at most
[3151.31] NJ: You know, it's a total...
[3153.31] Adam: There's nothing fun to avoid up there
[3155.31] Frank: That is also the thing
[3157.31] Frank: Then you end up with
[3159.31] Frank: There is the Article 16
[3162.31] Frank: Which is the kind of extra permissions
[3164.31] Frank: For the members of the Model Flying Associations in the UK
[3167.31] Frank: And in there there is a bit about
[3169.31] Frank: If you're FPV racing
[3171.31] Frank: And you're not going up above
[3173.31] Frank: 50 metres above the ground level
[3176.31] Frank: And you've got this and you've got that
[3178.31] Frank: Then you can fly without worrying about
[3181.31] Frank: How many spotters you've got or something
[3184.31] Frank: But, you know, this is why then
[3187.31] Frank: There's just another document to cover everything as well
[3192.31] Frank: So there's...
[3194.31] Frank: And then you have to dig through a load of stuff about
[3197.31] Frank: Control Line and everything else
[3200.31] Frank: To find that bit about the FPV racing
[3202.31] Frank: Which, you know...
[3204.31] Frank: It's a lot
[3206.31] Frank: It's a lot to read
[3208.31] Adam: That's not going away either, is it?
[3210.31] Adam: In a way I still think it's nice that it's there
[3213.31] Adam: Because it's not
[3215.31] Adam: It's relatively unique
[3218.31] Adam: That
[3220.31] Adam: To this country, I think
[3222.31] Adam: There are a lot of places that don't bother
[3224.31] Adam: Caring at all about people who do FPV
[3228.31] Adam: Or they just know that everyone who does FPV
[3231.31] Adam: Is not going to follow rules
[3233.31] Adam: I still...
[3235.31] Adam: Right from the start
[3237.31] Adam: My experience of
[3239.31] Adam: Flying was...
[3241.31] Adam: My thing that got me interested was the parrot
[3244.31] Adam: In some news about what was happening
[3248.31] Adam: At the Las Vegas gadget show
[3252.31] Adam: But it was me, you know
[3254.31] Adam: But I met you guys through that
[3256.31] Adam: Because at some point
[3258.31] Adam: You know, because of the way things are here
[3262.31] Adam: You meet up with people doing more interesting stuff
[3267.31] Adam: If what Jack does can be considered interesting
[3272.31] Frank: I think everyone here
[3274.31] Frank: Presumably at some point or another has found Jack interesting
[3277.31] Frank: I don't think we'd be here otherwise
[3283.31] NJ: In the last...
[3284.31] NJ: It's good to see in the comments
[3286.31] NJ: I was just going to say that
[3288.31] NJ: It's something that we've sort of probed
[3290.31] NJ: As you say Frank, we've probed you several times
[3293.31] NJ: Over the last few weeks over this
[3295.31] NJ: We had this coming where we would have an LDO
[3297.31] NJ: Where we talk about this in greater depth
[3300.31] NJ: But you can see from the comments
[3303.31] NJ: This is...
[3305.31] NJ: There's a lot of strong opinions in here
[3307.31] NJ: A lot of valid stuff being said
[3310.31] NJ: And it's people are investing the time into
[3313.31] NJ: Trying to sift through a lot of it
[3316.31] NJ: So, you know
[3318.31] NJ: I just think it's going to take
[3320.31] NJ: It's going to take a while, isn't it?
[3322.31] NJ: We're years away from any kind of refinement on a lot of this
[3325.31] NJ: So, I mean, what is the takeaway?
[3327.31] NJ: Just comply with the paperwork
[3330.31] NJ: And it sort of goes back to what you're saying, Adam
[3332.31] NJ: When you meet a cop that probably knows
[3335.31] NJ: Far less than you do about the rules
[3338.31] NJ: I'm not the guy who does stupid things with it
[3341.31] NJ: I know what I'm doing
[3342.31] NJ: Here's a bit of paper that shows you that
[3344.31] NJ: I'm making every effort to comply
[3346.31] NJ: You'll probably be fine, right?
[3348.31] Frank: Yeah
[3350.31] Frank: As has been said in the chat quite a bit
[3353.31] Frank: Do your own kind of informal
[3357.31] Frank: Internal risk assessment
[3359.31] Frank: As you have been doing for however long
[3362.31] Frank: That you've been flying, probably
[3364.31] Frank: As you do with everything
[3366.31] Frank: What is there? What could go wrong?
[3369.31] Frank: Is this worth the risk? Yeah
[3371.31] Frank: It's worth the risk
[3372.31] Frank: I'll do it
[3373.31] Frank: I mean, that's just that kind of common sense
[3375.31] Adam: You always will
[3376.31] Adam: You sort of instinctively do it
[3378.31] Adam: It's kind of depressing that you have to write it down
[3383.31] Frank: But if you've got that, then most
[3386.31] Frank: Unless you've done something to offend the police officer
[3391.31] Frank: Then they'll probably be all right with agreeing with you on that
[3395.31] Frank: I'm sure most of the time
[3398.31] NJ: Well, that's, yeah, that will depend on the officer
[3402.31] NJ: Sadly, it's at the point where
[3404.31] NJ: You'll probably be able to have a much more sensible conversation
[3408.31] NJ: With the policeman about this
[3410.31] NJ: And the bit of paper that you have
[3412.31] NJ: Than you will with most of the general public
[3415.31] NJ: That's now sadly the way things work
[3417.31] NJ: Because you've been doing this long enough
[3419.31] NJ: Which I know you all have and most of our listeners
[3422.31] NJ: There was a time where it was absolutely the general public who'd come up in awe
[3427.31] NJ: And say, what are you doing? That looks amazing
[3429.31] NJ: And, you know, the media have
[3433.31] NJ: We are where we are
[3434.31] NJ: Let's not go down that road
[3435.31] NJ: But we now have a very different stigma attached to what we do
[3441.31] NJ: And that's also got to be part of when you think about where you're flying
[3445.31] NJ: And you're representing
[3448.31] NJ: We're representing something that's very much on the back foot
[3451.31] NJ: Which is, it's sad, but, you know, this is where we are, right?
[3455.31] NJ: Mm-hmm
[3456.31] Frank: Yeah
[3457.31] Adam: And the nice side of that is the police are often quite
[3461.31] Adam: Not only interested in things
[3463.31] Adam: The police do see people who are quite good at that
[3466.31] Adam: But they're also sort of acutely aware
[3469.31] Adam: Of when people are putting bad law or bad rule
[3472.31] Adam: You know, because they don't like it because it's bad news for them
[3475.31] Adam: So, you know, if you seem to understand
[3478.31] Adam: And everyone's having a sensible discussion about risk and stuff
[3482.31] Adam: You'll usually find that sort of thing ends quite nicely
[3486.31] Adam: Unless the policeman has certain biases or whatever
[3490.31] NJ: Oh, yeah
[3494.04] Frank: I'm expecting a beach ball to come flying through
[3497.04] Frank: And hit you straight in the face at any second
[3500.04] Adam: Well, that door's still shut at the moment
[3505.04] Frank: But speaking of beach balls, Kerry, before we go
[3507.04] Frank: Do you want to give us a very brief bit of note
[3513.04] Frank: On what you've been up to on your simulator?
[3516.04] Curry: The sim has the game in it, which has a beach ball
[3520.04] Curry: You have to knock it around ten levels and get it in the goal
[3523.04] Curry: So far Caroline hates it, but other people don't hate it so much
[3527.04] Curry: It ends here in the games a lot
[3529.04] Curry: It is available as a Steam beater
[3532.04] Curry: If you've already got the Steam version, you can just join the beater and download it
[3536.04] Curry: And give it a go
[3537.04] Curry: And if you can let me know how you find it, that will be helpful
[3540.04] Curry: Because I haven't quite finished it
[3541.04] Curry: I wanted to just make sure people liked it
[3544.04] Curry: I like it, but I wrote it, so I would like it
[3546.04] Curry: So that's not a very good point of view
[3549.04] Curry: So please try it if you can
[3550.04] Curry: Thank you
[3551.04] NJ: One final little thing as well
[3554.04] NJ: I did receive in the post a prototype, not for resale
[3559.04] NJ: And it is an Archon V3, which I'm very excited to get together
[3567.04] Curry: Do you like the fact he's drawn in the logo?
[3570.04] NJ: Yeah, he's got this
[3572.04] NJ: prototype packaging as well
[3574.04] NJ: Yeah, I like the vacuum packs
[3578.04] Frank: Looks like a kind of fillet of fish
[3581.04] Frank: Yes
[3582.04] NJ: Yeah, exactly
[3583.04] NJ: You can put it straight in the fridge, it'll keep the unit
[3587.04] NJ: So yeah, that will be hopefully getting a build very soon
[3590.04] NJ: But yeah, that's us at the hour, I think
[3594.04] NJ: Adam, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us about that
[3597.04] NJ: It's good to get an update on things
[3601.04] Adam: Well, I apologise for a sort of hit and miss arrangement
[3605.04] Curry: I feel like you need to round off with the old crime watch thing
[3608.04] Curry: And say, please people, don't have nightmares
[3611.04] Curry: These are rules, but just don't be addicted and you'll be alright
[3616.04] Adam: I mean, that is how I rounded off the two and a half thousand words
[3619.04] Adam: I was compelled to write this
[3621.04] Adam: Clearly not all of it stuck in my head
[3627.04] Frank: Thank you for joining us and thank you everyone for listening
[3631.04] Frank: Thank you as well to our patrons who call this possible
[3635.04] Frank: and get it all edited and up on the podcast for all the
[3639.04] Frank: people that maybe have listened to the first five for tuning out
[3644.04] Frank: So tonight we have had Curry Kitten
[3648.04] Frank: Good night
[3649.04] Frank: We have had N.J.
[3650.04] NJ: Okay guys
[3651.04] Frank: We've had Adam
[3652.04] NJ: Evening all
[3653.04] Frank: We've had Tony, but I think he died
[3657.04] Adam: Yeah, we got him after him
[3664.04] Frank: I have been frank
[3665.04] Frank: So join us again next week where hopefully we'll be showing
[3670.04] Frank: some triggering images for him
[3673.04] Frank: So tune in for that
[3675.04] Frank: Bye