=== Let's Drone Out — Episode 301 ===
Title: LDO 301 - Tuning With Krunked
Recorded: 2021-06-03
Hosts: Andrew "Frank" Hyams, Jack "Brightontillifly" Nash, Wayne "CurryKitten" Andrews, Tony "TheTonstar1" Marchant
Guest(s): Krunked
Total audience: 2,319
Platforms: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-83hJyWr7I); SoundCloud (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/1062140530-letsdroneout-ldo-301-tuning-with-krunked.mp3)
=====================================

Alex is https://youtube.com/channel/UCagimekXD3If7ts52sASrvg
krunkedquads.com

[0.0] Curry: Welcome to Let's Drone Out, the original and best drone themed podcast.
[5.0] Curry: We record the show live on the Thursday night on youtube.com forward slash Let's Drone Out
[10.0] Curry: and our lovely patrons help with the editing costs.
[12.0] Tony: These are...
[13.0] Curry: Wacky Wes
[14.0] Tony: Mikey Dread
[15.0] Tony: Art Faulkner
[17.0] Tony: Carlos Campos
[19.0] Tony: Thank you
[20.0] Tony: Now let the trees recover
[21.0] Tony: Let's Drone Out now
[22.0] Jack: And welcome back to another episode of Let's Drone Out.
[56.25] Jack: Tonight you are joined by everyone's favourite curry kitten.
[59.25] Jack: Hello
[60.25] Jack: Our lord and master Andrew slash Frank.
[63.25] Jack: Good evening
[64.25] Jack: And a person who I've heard more about than ever before on Bardwell stream crunked.
[73.25] Jack: What's up? What's up?
[75.25] Jack: The man with the golden pids for kiss apparently.
[79.25] Jack: And I'm Jack and I'm right until I fly.
[83.25] Jack: Hello
[84.25] Jack: Hello
[85.25] Jack: Hello
[86.25] Jack: Welcome
[87.25] Jack: So like these these guys didn't check the Google Doc, which is fine because like it's very rare that I even write into it.
[94.25] Jack: So like because I've done the correct thing like it's all gone to...
[99.25] Jack: Frank
[100.25] Jack: Like there's going to be in the private chat.
[103.25] Jack: There's going to be like a little diagram of like what a pit loop is.
[107.25] Jack: I don't know whether you can show that in a bit.
[109.25] Jack: But because I can ask ask our guests to try and explain it to us.
[113.25] Jack: And it's literally going to be like, you know, like you've got a pen for the monkeys and they're bashing rocks together.
[119.25] Jack: They don't even got typewriters.
[121.25] Jack: They're just like, you know, I'm getting poo on everything.
[125.25] Jack: Curry kittens playing with sticks and rocks and Frank's trying to take over the world.
[130.25] Jack: That's Let's Drone Out in a monkey pen, I reckon.
[134.25] Jack: But I've been chilling.
[136.25] Jack: I've been like visiting Joshua Bardwell, our friend over there.
[141.25] Jack: He's been doing live streams.
[143.25] Jack: And I hear your name come up a lot.
[147.25] Jack: And I've also when he done the like review of like modifying the apex to digital FPV, like your name came up again.
[159.25] Jack: And I believe that you offer not only a remote tuning service,
[164.25] Jack: but also someone can send you a quad for you to tune and also they can send parts.
[170.25] Jack: You'll build it, tune it and then send it back.
[174.25] Jack: Like, A, are you mad?
[181.25] Jack: And B, like, have you ever had a quad that you couldn't tune?
[185.25] Jack: Surely, you know, with those like cobra motors, you know, the silver bottom ones, man, I could I couldn't tune anything with them on.
[193.25] Krunked: Yeah, those are those are old, but that would be definitely a challenge for sure.
[197.25] Krunked: Especially this day and age with everything being sensitive.
[199.25] Krunked: But but, yeah, I said crumb quads dot com.
[204.25] Krunked: I definitely offer a little service that it's like 40 bucks and I can review the log with you and go over it the best I can.
[212.25] Krunked: It's, you know, from afar, the best tool is your weakest link.
[218.25] Krunked: You know what I mean? Like so, like, as long as the person can reiterate what they're doing, like if they can fly, they can tell me exactly what's going on with the quad, etc.
[228.25] Krunked: And give me DVR and a log in.
[231.25] Krunked: I can usually get them in the right path.
[233.25] Krunked: But of course, there are those ones that come up that are very challenging or there's some type of physical problem with it, like a mechanical issue, like the motors are really loud or the frame is bad.
[247.25] Krunked: Or it's just put together really poorly, like the stack will be just really loose or it'll be like a through hole flight controller with just gummies and they didn't secure.
[260.25] Krunked: Like the way they secure the stack together is straight through the stack with a nut on top.
[267.25] Krunked: So like not like securing the bolt to the frame, you know, and they're wondering why their gyro is just crazy.
[277.25] Krunked: So there's just little stuff like that that gets difficult to deal with.
[281.25] Krunked: And that's when if you send it to me, it's a little bit easier.
[285.25] Curry: So what I'm interested to know if it's not a complete trade secret is your general sequence about let's say something's flying and it's not an obvious physical problem.
[294.25] Curry: And it just seems to be like a bit jittery, not as smooth as it could be.
[297.25] Curry: What are the sort of key areas you start with and where do you go from there to pin down the small things?
[303.25] Krunked: First, it's like the filtering.
[305.25] Krunked: You know, first and foremost, you start at the filtering and make sure that the gyro is not letting you through some goofy noise or you or maybe you're over filtered.
[315.25] Krunked: That happens a lot, especially with beta flight lately, which it's over filtered a lot because they assume that you have a total trash quad, which is probably a good assumption.
[325.25] Krunked: You know, play on the safe side, let the filters be nice and conservative and you'll still you'll get good performance.
[333.25] Krunked: Your quad will fly, but you might not get like that locked in perfect feel, you know, no prop wash type thing out of the gate.
[342.25] Krunked: But the first thing that you do is the filtering and then you do the PD balance and then you go into the PD games.
[351.25] Krunked: So that's like the basic sequence.
[354.25] Curry: So all the stuff I don't touch basically because I was like filtering.
[359.25] Curry: That's that's funny.
[360.25] Curry: I don't understand how that works.
[361.25] Curry: You know, I think it's into two types of people.
[365.25] Curry: I think the types of people like me is like my quad flies.
[369.25] Curry: I've just driven 40 minutes to fly.
[371.25] Curry: I'm going to fly stuff and go home.
[373.25] Curry: I wish I had the luxury to go out there and just twiddle about and stuff, but I never do.
[379.25] Curry: Do you have to go far to fly or can you just do outside your house or something nice?
[383.25] Krunked: I used to be able to just fly outside my house, but I recently moved.
[386.25] Krunked: So I have to go somewhere to fly now.
[388.25] Krunked: But thankfully, I've been able to find some spots that are pretty close by that have some trees, a little concrete, a little dirt.
[395.25] Krunked: It's got a little bit of everything.
[396.25] Krunked: So it's just real quick to jump out there.
[399.25] Krunked: It's five minutes away, but it is sort of a hassle to to pack up all my stuff at my other house where I could just I could just literally open a slider and just fly was amazing.
[410.25] Krunked: I like lived right up, put it up against the farm.
[412.25] Krunked: So that was really cool.
[414.25] Krunked: That was that ended, unfortunately, about two months ago.
[417.25] Krunked: I just moved.
[420.25] Krunked: Moving on up.
[421.25] Krunked: Yeah, I liked that little lot, but it's OK.
[425.25] Krunked: Moving on.
[426.25] Jack: Oh, how are you doing this using the built in box for be your flight and then with kiss?
[432.25] Jack: I'm guessing using the open logger.
[435.25] Krunked: Well, for kiss there, I don't I try not to really do too much pit tuning because I mean, pitching in the general sense of looking at a log.
[444.25] Krunked: Pit tuning and we do do with kiss is more like doing flips and rolls, reviewing the DVR, seeing if it's actually you know, if it's bouncing around or not.
[455.25] Krunked: And then adjusting from there because there's a lot less parameters to go along with that as well.
[460.25] Krunked: And in kiss, there is no filter tuning.
[462.25] Krunked: So it's just put your piece somewhere, put your eyes somewhere, adjust your D.
[468.25] Krunked: And that's it.
[469.25] Krunked: It's it's really that simple.
[471.25] Krunked: It's unless there's some type of mechanical problem, it really it hopefully becomes that simple because on beta flight, emu flight, Falco X, every whatever flight you want to use your quad should fly.
[484.25] Krunked: Well, on default, if it doesn't fly well on default, there's something probably wrong.
[491.25] Krunked: That's the best way the rule of thumb that I've come to find out is like, it's OK.
[495.25] Krunked: You have a problem quad.
[497.25] Krunked: All your settings are are different.
[500.25] Krunked: I don't know if you knew what you were doing or not, but they're all changed.
[503.25] Krunked: So go back to the fall.
[505.25] Krunked: And does the quad actually fly?
[508.25] Krunked: I do that on a kiss as well, like fly defaults first and then go use my preset.
[514.25] Krunked: And then from there, if you need to adjust, adjust because my preset should get most quads pretty close.
[522.25] Krunked: It's real close.
[523.25] Krunked: And on all of my quads, I have over forty five quads now and they all not all of them are kiss.
[529.25] Krunked: I think about twenty twenty of them now are kiss.
[532.25] Krunked: But all of them are within this within two tunes of each other.
[537.25] Krunked: So it's very close.
[540.25] Jack: And how do you get access to your golden tune?
[544.25] Jack: Is it available?
[546.25] Jack: Yeah, to buy it from you.
[548.25] Krunked: No, no, no, it's all on.
[549.25] Krunked: It's in the kiss.
[550.25] Krunked: People don't know this and it's it's it's been there for a long time.
[554.25] Krunked: In the kiss UI, there's a dropdown that you can you can click on presets or user.
[559.25] Krunked: You can click user and that drops down a giant repository of just a little database that they
[566.25] Krunked: stood up so many years ago and you can go add your own, et cetera.
[570.25] Krunked: And so it just pops into the UI and none of them are syndicated.
[574.25] Krunked: You know what I mean?
[575.25] Krunked: Like kiss doesn't say use any of these.
[577.25] Krunked: They just say use default.
[579.25] Jack: Yeah.
[580.25] Jack: So you've got it.
[581.25] Jack: What have you got labeled under Krunk or like the kiss golden?
[586.25] Krunked: It's Krunk's golden starting point.
[588.25] Krunked: There's one in there that's like called Krunk.
[590.25] Krunked: I don't know how to delete them.
[591.25] Krunked: I need to.
[592.25] Krunked: I think there might be a delete button.
[593.25] Krunked: But I need to go.
[594.25] Krunked: I haven't just been lazy.
[595.25] Krunked: But there's one in there called like golden starting.
[598.25] Krunked: That's like needs to be deleted.
[600.25] Krunked: It's the golden starting point.
[602.25] Krunked: Krunk's golden starting point.
[603.25] Krunked: And that's like 4.2 P ups the I gains by about double.
[608.25] Krunked: And then it ups the D gain to about 14.5 on roll and 16.5 on pitch.
[616.25] Krunked: And that's it.
[617.25] Krunked: It's it's it's it's really that simple with beta flight.
[620.25] Krunked: It's not that simple.
[622.25] Jack: Do you want to.
[624.25] Jack: So do you want to have a little quick explain of what a pit loop is and then we'll go into
[631.25] Jack: like the maybe if you if you don't mind the process of being like how do you tune lightly.
[639.25] Krunked: Sure.
[640.25] Krunked: Well a pit loop is a control loop.
[643.25] Krunked: It happens many thousand times a second where it's looking at a set point versus the in this case the gyro
[650.25] Krunked: or whatever other thing you're trying to track and they need to be close together.
[656.25] Krunked: And if they're not close together that's what's called error.
[658.25] Krunked: And when error occurs something will happen like that's.
[662.25] Krunked: So in this in this gift right here you can see the step response is coming down to be critically damped.
[668.25] Krunked: So at first it doesn't have enough P.
[670.25] Krunked: Now it has a lot of P. Now it has too much P.
[674.25] Krunked: So now they're going to up the I gain a little bit which I don't do that much.
[678.25] Krunked: We can stay with the faults but then you'll get this oscillation and you pull down D to get that first hump to make it critically damped.
[685.25] Krunked: So that last image right there is what you're going for.
[688.25] Krunked: And what we're actually looking at is like a manifestation of all of the the flips and rolls and roll rates etc.
[697.25] Krunked: Versus the gyro and it computed into what we call step response.
[702.25] Krunked: And that's what the pit loop is doing is trying to keep gyro and set point.
[707.25] Krunked: It's close together as possible.
[709.25] Krunked: So anytime there's a deviation from the two that's called error.
[713.25] Krunked: And that's when the pit loop engages starts either pushing or trying to stop something.
[719.25] Krunked: P is for like pushing.
[721.25] Krunked: I is error over time.
[723.25] Krunked: It D is derivative which is like fighting all motion is the best way to think about it.
[729.25] Jack: Yeah no worries because like I like another thing for later on is like I wonder like you know you bring your P up and then like how do you know you haven't overshot your P.
[744.25] Jack: And you know that sort of like balance between P and I because like at one point like it was all about getting your P as low as possible with your eye.
[755.25] Jack: Like is that still the case.
[757.25] Krunked: No actually it's really you want the most P possible.
[761.25] Krunked: You want the most P possible up until oscillation and then you want to back down ever so slightly.
[769.25] Krunked: So you want to go to us.
[771.25] Krunked: Reference Stinger Swarms video from back in the day.
[775.25] Krunked: I'm sure everyone's seen who's tried to search for pit tuning or anything like that.
[780.25] Krunked: Any of you guys seen that say your swarm little video where he's doing it.
[784.25] Krunked: It's the same.
[786.25] Krunked: Yeah.
[787.25] Krunked: Same type of thing there.
[789.25] Krunked: But move it.
[790.25] Krunked: Yeah.
[791.25] Krunked: When you go when you push the P up too high like kind of like yeah.
[796.25] Krunked: Flutter back and forth and you can hear it.
[799.25] Krunked: And that's when you back it down a little bit or you can give it more D.
[804.25] Krunked: So there's a balance of where you're at.
[806.25] Krunked: That's where it gets a little tricky.
[808.25] Krunked: You get to either you can bring your P up or you can keep your P where it's at and bring your D up and see if it evens out those oscillations.
[817.25] Krunked: But that's really tuning it towards like the edge.
[821.25] Curry: You know what I mean.
[822.25] Curry: It's always so it confused me because whenever people talked about the P and D that they say start tuning it with a D of zero if you can.
[830.25] Curry: And then after you tune the P bring your D up to the minimum.
[834.25] Curry: But after that point you might have to go back again and retune the P because the D can affect the P.
[839.25] Curry: Is that right.
[840.25] Curry: Do you have to go sort of in a loop until you sort of.
[842.25] Krunked: Yeah.
[843.25] Krunked: And what you're talking about is really the proper way like to do it from scratch.
[850.25] Krunked: And to tell you the truth with the way the defaults are etc.
[854.25] Krunked: I just start from the fall.
[856.25] Krunked: It's so it shortcuts all that having to zero everything.
[861.25] Krunked: You know like there is also a time.
[863.25] Krunked: I don't know if maybe you've seen where the UAV text guide where he is zero out feed forward etc.
[871.25] Krunked: So you take that out of the equation and then you start doing your PD balance and you're getting your step response.
[878.25] Krunked: And then from there you bring up your PD gains and your PD gains.
[883.25] Krunked: You know the higher you can go you want to go as high as you can go until your oscillation or fly away and then dial it down a little bit.
[891.25] Krunked: But then you want to pull in a little feed forward.
[894.25] Krunked: But in the way that I personally do it I have just done so many quads.
[900.25] Krunked: I know where they're going to roughly be most of the time that I don't go to the extreme of doing what UAV text guide actually says to do step by step by step.
[913.25] Krunked: I just sort of session all together go to the end go do some flips give me a give me a log and then I can look at it.
[920.25] Krunked: And I have like I have like a script of settings that are really good for defaults for beta flights five inch classes.
[929.25] Krunked: So I'll give them that and say go use this as a baseline like we know that that default flies well.
[939.25] Krunked: So fly these kids in these settings get a log of it and come back and that'll be the baseline.
[945.25] Krunked: And then from there we adjust.
[947.25] Krunked: So sometimes there's a lot of adjusting sometimes there's not a lot.
[951.25] Krunked: Sometimes that preset that I give them for beta flight hits pretty close.
[955.25] Krunked: Sometimes it doesn't like I can say that five inch quads are the best and easiest to tune.
[962.25] Krunked: Those are my favorite because they just seem to work.
[967.25] Krunked: They just work really well.
[969.25] Krunked: Whereas like when you get into six seven inch you start getting shaking and oscillation and vibrations and stuff that really makes the quad fly like crap.
[977.25] Krunked: And it's hard to get around because people want that performance.
[980.25] Krunked: They want that no prop wash.
[982.25] Krunked: They want that really tight feeling and gyro tracking set point tracking rather.
[988.25] Krunked: But then they can't get it because they're they need more filtering et cetera because their quad is shaking or something.
[997.25] Curry: What about going to smaller quarters.
[999.25] Curry: Is that worse than bigger quad.
[1001.25] Curry: So because I have been around five inches isn't it in terms of things like toothpicks or whoops.
[1006.25] Curry: Are they trickier than the sort of larger ones or they can be tricky as well especially if you don't have a black box log.
[1014.25] Krunked: They make it it's much easier to diagnose if it does have a black box log because you know a lot of these AIOs at least in the last year or two since I was in toothpicks.
[1024.25] Krunked: They didn't have black box logs on it at all.
[1027.25] Krunked: So you just had to tune it completely by hand just like Kisswood but beta flight.
[1032.25] Krunked: So those are more difficult but now I'm seeing more and more black boxes on these AIOs for toothpicks et cetera like in the beta FPV V3.
[1040.25] Krunked: I think the V2 might even have had like 60 mag or something but having the black box log for for beta flight really makes things.
[1049.25] Krunked: It makes it easier to get it really close.
[1052.25] Krunked: And then from there tweak it.
[1054.25] Jack: Cool. I remember when I flew like I borrowed my friends like you gave me a go of the is it the HGLRC sector 132.
[1072.25] Jack: It was on like a beta flight 4.2 and it was like a little I think it's like a little three inch and like it was.
[1083.25] Jack: Yeah like he found this tune hang on from like Spider Monkey and like it flew locked in.
[1092.25] Jack: It was it was this this this one.
[1095.25] Jack: And it's easily the best flying quad I've ever liked.
[1099.25] Jack: It was just proper.
[1101.25] Jack: It kind of went where you wanted it to.
[1103.25] Jack: I've never kind of managed to do that my five inch.
[1106.25] Jack: But I think that's I think that's because this is really light and then the five inches got the inertia.
[1113.25] Jack: Whereas I would probably like miss not being able to like throw it around and have a bit of a glide slope.
[1120.25] Jack: I'm guessing.
[1122.25] Curry: I was going to say there's certainly something to be done for people that know how to tune things properly because I say be a flight out of the box will generally fly called pretty well.
[1131.25] Curry: But it's only when you fly something that has really been tuned where you like.
[1135.25] Curry: Actually this is really cool.
[1137.25] Curry: So I had one of the the emergency Mojo 230s and that had sort of guest tunes.
[1143.25] Curry: So Chad Nowak had one and did a tune and but Grundy did one and somebody else did one and all very different the way they flew.
[1151.25] Curry: But they were really, really nice.
[1153.25] Curry: So nicely locked in and very, very smooth.
[1156.25] Curry: So there's certainly something to be said for getting someone to do it for you, even if you don't want to do it.
[1163.25] Curry: Because that's that's a lot of hassle to learn.
[1166.25] Krunked: So it is.
[1167.25] Curry: I'll tell you what it is.
[1169.25] Krunked: It took me a long time.
[1171.25] Krunked: It was I learned things pretty quickly.
[1174.25] Krunked: And I suppose when I when I really want to learn something, I really learn it and it like it.
[1180.25] Krunked: Give me about two weeks and I'll learn it like I see I'm a programmer.
[1184.25] Krunked: So I teach myself different programming language.
[1186.25] Krunked: I taught myself Python overnight stuff like that.
[1189.25] Krunked: So this was something that was I didn't want to touch any code.
[1192.25] Krunked: I just wanted to make the damn thing fly well.
[1195.25] Krunked: And I had a bunch of quads that were just annoying.
[1198.25] Krunked: Like I would put on beta flight flying on 48 kilohertz.
[1203.25] Krunked: And the thing would wobble and it would drive me crazy.
[1206.25] Krunked: And that's really what sparked it was when we went to RPM filtering.
[1210.25] Krunked: And when we got the sliders, that's when I really like it was like, this makes it so easy.
[1215.25] Krunked: And understanding what a step response is and using PID toolbox.
[1221.25] Krunked: That's another really cool and good tool that I use to analyze the black box data to look at the step response,
[1229.25] Krunked: look at the filter, the filter data.
[1233.25] Krunked: But really what I use it for is the step response.
[1235.25] Krunked: And that's the that was really what made tuning easier for me,
[1240.53] Krunked: I think was having that visualization just like in that that GIF we saw.
[1246.53] Krunked: That's what the step responses and that's what PID toolbox spits out for me to see as long as you've done
[1251.53] Krunked: enough moves, like you've done enough snap moves, like N.
[1256.53] Krunked: So N is your sample size.
[1258.53] Krunked: So as long as you have enough sample size, you get a good average and you have a good representation of your step response.
[1265.53] Krunked: And from there, you know what to add over time.
[1269.53] Krunked: Like if you're bouncing away or over it, you know you have too much P or you need more D.
[1275.53] Krunked: You know, if you're way below the line, you know you have way too much D or you don't have nowhere near enough P.
[1283.53] Krunked: So after some time, you just sort of catch on to those little things, especially when you see the data.
[1288.53] Krunked: So it's not that difficult with that with that tool at your I'm going to write it down on my notes.
[1294.53] Curry: So I know about this one day I'll have enough time to pitch you something properly.
[1298.53] Krunked: Yeah, it makes it easy.
[1299.53] Krunked: As long as you do the right flight, you get the right data in the log.
[1303.53] Krunked: You parse it through this tool.
[1305.53] Krunked: It spits out a step response.
[1307.53] Krunked: You know, I can just it takes me two seconds to know you don't need to go left on PD balance or you need to turn up your PD balance by two ticks.
[1316.53] Krunked: And then it's eventually it's just boom.
[1318.53] Krunked: And it's you know, it's supposed to be snap and like stop on a dime.
[1323.53] Krunked: That's the whole goal.
[1325.53] Jack: I think I'm going to have to.
[1326.53] Jack: I'm going to have to pay you and go on to the wrong course because like we're like we're 20 minutes in and I'm like, I've got like the plastic forehead feeling.
[1338.53] Jack: Yeah, response.
[1339.53] Jack: That's important.
[1340.53] Jack: Have you got any visualizations or anything for step response other than that gift?
[1344.53] Jack: Just that gift.
[1345.53] Krunked: That gift is a really good representation of step response.
[1348.53] Krunked: Actually, right now, Blake Sams is messaging me with a log for a six inch tune.
[1354.53] Krunked: He's from DRL.
[1356.53] Krunked: I've been helping him with a bunch of his quads.
[1358.53] Krunked: And I was just I just a few minutes ago put his one of his logs through a pit tool locks got step response.
[1366.53] Krunked: I was like, yeah, it looks good.
[1369.53] Jack: What about notch filtering?
[1372.53] Jack: Say that again.
[1373.53] Jack: Notch filtering.
[1374.53] Jack: Do you bother with that?
[1375.53] Jack: Do you remember like you like hang on the old, you know, you know, this below.
[1384.53] Jack: He never bothered with any of that.
[1386.53] Krunked: No, we don't have to anymore with RPM filtering.
[1389.53] Krunked: It's taken care of.
[1391.53] Krunked: It's gone.
[1393.53] Jack: It's not a thing anymore.
[1395.53] Krunked: No.
[1396.53] Krunked: We have the dynamic notch, which is crushing any residual noise and frame residents from 90 to 350 or even up to 600 hertz, depending on if you're on 4.2 or 4.3.
[1408.53] Krunked: RPM filtering is just the.
[1412.53] Krunked: It's really it's so and you know, it's it's more filtering.
[1415.53] Krunked: A lot of people don't know what it's doing.
[1417.53] Krunked: It's just it's just, you know, a button that they toggle on bi-directional D shot, but it's actually a whole bank.
[1423.53] Krunked: It's a 36 bank might be 48.
[1426.53] Krunked: I think it's 36.
[1427.53] Krunked: It's 36, 12, 12, 12.
[1429.53] Krunked: It's three banks of 12 different notches at different harmonics.
[1433.53] Krunked: Right.
[1434.53] Krunked: So you have a bunch more filtering going on so you can turn off other filters so you don't need all those LPFs on.
[1443.53] Krunked: You don't need a dynamic one that's going with your throttle.
[1446.53] Krunked: You just turn that off.
[1448.53] Krunked: Just like, you know, on UAV text filtering discussions, he's talking about just turning off completely.
[1457.53] Krunked: And you can totally do that if your quads clean enough.
[1459.53] Krunked: But most quads aren't that clean.
[1461.53] Krunked: And most of the time, what I do is set up a LPF one statically at 300 hertz.
[1467.53] Krunked: And that acts as like a sweeper.
[1469.53] Krunked: So you put like a low pass filter there and anything over here where the RPM filter is cleaning anything out, anything that gets past it will then get crushed.
[1478.53] Krunked: By the low pass filter as much as possible.
[1481.53] Krunked: Then down below down here, you are over here.
[1484.53] Krunked: I guess you have the dynamic notch going to the peak noise in trying to crush out any residual resonance between the frequencies of what you have set.
[1494.53] Krunked: So as far as a notch goes, I haven't needed to use it like a static notch in a while.
[1503.06] Krunked: And usually that's indicative of something being wrong.
[1507.06] Frank: And what the filtering is doing is literally filtering out the noise that's getting to the gyro.
[1515.06] Frank: And then the flight controller sees that kind of as like, oh, I've moved really quickly.
[1520.06] Frank: And it's actually just kind of vibration in the quads.
[1525.06] Frank: And because the RPM filtering is just saying, OK, if the motors are going this fast, we'll ignore anything that's at that frequency.
[1535.06] Frank: Or a multiple in that frequency, because that's just going to be something to do with the motor flinging something around.
[1542.06] Frank: And so it's probably not actual movement.
[1545.06] Frank: It's just vibration.
[1548.06] Frank: So that's good to know that I've personally just ignored filtering, notch filtering for long enough that it's now not something I have to learn.
[1557.06] Frank: That's good. I'm happy about that.
[1560.06] Krunked: You don't need a notch.
[1562.06] Krunked: And the only way you might need a notch is if you have some really goofy old beat up quad that's on KISS and you have a logger.
[1570.06] Krunked: I guess like if you have a logger for KISS and you look at the gyro data and notice that there's a giant spike like 160 hertz that's not going away.
[1580.06] Krunked: You could you could put something there.
[1582.06] Krunked: But I mean, really, really, if you have to put a notch on, there's usually something wrong or you're on a really unique platform of some sort.
[1594.06] Krunked: But generically, like a four or five and six inch quad should not require any type of special filtering besides turning stuff off.
[1603.06] Frank: So Aries is saying about don't forget about frame resonance.
[1607.06] Frank: So I guess that's the case where maybe that's kind of maybe that's where it is sort of something like an X-Class quad where if you've got a long enough arm, then there's going to be sort of a low enough frequency of the resonance of that arm that the arm wants to shake at.
[1625.06] Frank: And whatever kind of speeds the motors going, it'll still be shaking at its own resonant frequency rather than the frequency of the motors.
[1634.06] Frank: There's going to be that other resonancy there.
[1637.06] Frank: And that's where there's going to be some notch filtering.
[1640.06] Frank: It's going to be good because that's going to be a constant resonant frequency pretty much that you could put in a notch photo on.
[1648.06] Frank: So I guess that's why when you get to a bigger quad, it gets all the more complicated.
[1654.06] Krunked: That's why they're still there, frankly.
[1656.06] Krunked: I mean, if that's why they're still there, like that's why if you have a beta flights made for like a five inch race squad, but it can be ran on anything from a little tiny whoop to a giant X-Class.
[1668.06] Krunked: So if you were flying an X-Class and you did need a notch, you got a notch.
[1675.06] Krunked: But, you know, for a five inch and four, five, six, even three inch, your dynamic notch is going to crush a very high majority of that frame resonance out.
[1687.06] Krunked: So you shouldn't have much.
[1689.06] Frank: And if you do get a different frame, stop attaching eccentric vibrating motors onto your onto your frames.
[1701.06] Curry: I do love the way you're describing it as it kind of sounds like a tower defense game where they're coming at you and you've got all these filters to try and crush them as they come.
[1710.06] Frank: This episode was recorded in front of a live online audience, downloaded and edited to make sense when it played audio only, censored to please the iTunes people hosted on the Internet, forwarded through to your podcast provider, downloaded, playing on your device and is now playing in your ears.
[1725.06] Frank: All thanks to our Patreons.
[1727.06] Frank: Consider joining them and you'll also get other online benefits.
[1730.06] Frank: Find out more at patreon.com forward slash. Let's drone out.
[1735.06] Jack: What's your personal favorite? You more be a fine man and you kiss.
[1740.06] Krunked: I personally prefer kiss and then I'm like Falco and then beta flight.
[1747.06] Krunked: But I have no idea about.
[1750.06] Krunked: I like Falco a lot. It's a it's different. It's the best way to put it.
[1755.06] Jack: Yeah. And what about the fat tech stuff?
[1758.06] Krunked: I have it all. I have I have kiss fat tech. I have kiss mixed with fat tech.
[1765.06] Krunked: All the above. I've got the apex OSD regulator. I've got the Wolf V3. I've got the old steel stuff.
[1772.06] Krunked: I've got the 32 amp BSCs. I've got the 25 amp BSCs got the 45 to 35 fat tech.
[1780.06] Krunked: Yeah, I've got I've got the fat tech OSD. I've got all their products.
[1784.06] Curry: We've just got a question as well from from when when says Crunked.
[1787.06] Curry: Can you ever see a day that pit tuning will be able to done to be done automated to a high standard by the FC?
[1793.06] Curry: Because you've talked about specific responses to frequency and stuff and sort of as a programmer.
[1801.06] Curry: I'm sort of like you thinking, well, here's the thing. We've got a solution.
[1806.06] Curry: Can that be automated in some way in order to fix a problem?
[1810.06] Curry: Can can the flight controller detect what's going on and say, oh, I need to tune myself to a different way here and fix everything?
[1818.06] Krunked: I've thought about that. And I think that it'd be really cool. But the it's a little dangerous.
[1823.06] Krunked: And I think that the only way that it could be done is through some type of I mean, an algorithm probably could do it or just like an FL statement.
[1831.06] Krunked: But maybe some AI. But I think you just need faster processor or some way to offload the data you get.
[1838.06] Krunked: And you need some type of automated scripts to run a set, you know, set of motions like you need it to do 10 flips that are perfect.
[1848.06] Krunked: You need it to do 10 rolls that are perfect. You need to do punch outs.
[1852.06] Krunked: You need to gather enough data that I would gather for it then to make a decision based on whatever data comes back.
[1861.06] Krunked: So I think it totally could be a thing. Why it's not a thing right now.
[1865.06] Jack: I don't I don't really know how to use the hobby. I think it's probably because if you remember the early days of like a base flight, do you remember it had like an auto tune thing and all it would do is freak out.
[1880.06] Curry: Was it place flight or do clean flight? Clean flight and what it would do it first do these little tips like that.
[1888.06] Curry: I would say don't don't touch the control. But on a bit of wind, my quad is flying off down the field and it's like you shouldn't touch it because you'll have to reset.
[1897.06] Curry: So it eventually got done. And it was absolutely like a dog. It was really worse than I could ever detune it myself.
[1905.06] Krunked: There you go. Maybe that's already been tried. Maybe maybe there'll be a second iteration of that or we have to dominate about that one.
[1911.06] Frank: I remember being in a field with Dominic trying an early version.
[1916.06] Frank: Well, multiple early versions of that auto tune algorithm and it was terrifying because the I mean that the one that I think got released was a little less violent than his early attempts.
[1933.06] Frank: But yeah, we were genuinely concerned for our safety when he when he tried those out.
[1939.06] Frank: But I know that I mean, the other one was the tri flight, the tail tune for the tail servo also pain in the ass.
[1952.06] Frank: It did work, but it is the reason that I haven't flown my baby try is because I had to reflash it at some point and lose that and then I haven't found another time and place that I've been bothered to wait for it to be still enough to actually leave it on that long enough to tune it.
[1967.06] Frank: But never mind. But I mean, I mean, I've I've seen a couple of videos, you was, I think, a fixed wing as well.
[1975.06] Frank: And I think in in I now, right, there's there's an auto tune with the I now where you fly it in auto tune mode and you're just flying it around and then it kind of works it out for itself after that.
[1992.06] Krunked: Well, I mean, if it works, it works. I don't have any experience with it. That'd be really cool.
[1997.06] Krunked: I just think that it's easy to be used by more people. I think the problem is that there's such a big subset of quads that, you know, if you were to do an auto tune on like a hexa copter or something and I don't know, all of a sudden it's lodged in someone's windshield.
[2015.06] Krunked: I don't know. Yeah.
[2020.06] Frank: I mean, the other kind of thing, I guess, is that if you had something where you could model because I mean, the whole point of it is the reason you're having to do some petuning is it's you're trying to tell it how it needs to react in order to counteract an excellent external input.
[2042.06] Frank: Right. And if you could tell it if it could work that out for itself, you wouldn't even need like a pit loop anymore. You could just forget pit loops because that's that's just a way of modeling what it needs to be doing.
[2056.06] Frank: If if it could work out for itself, how it needs to react in order to counteract an input, then you just you'd use whatever just doing that and not have to worry about a pit loop anymore.
[2069.06] Krunked: You're right. And I think the the main argument for that that I've heard from Mark from UAV tech is that pit loops work too well.
[2078.06] Krunked: It's work and like, yeah, why try to reinvent the wheel really when we don't have to.
[2083.06] Frank: And they're very well understood that, you know, we've got them pretty computationally efficient at this point, having been used for the past hundred years.
[2093.06] Frank: You know, it's it's a it's a pretty solid way of doing things, but it does just mean that you have to kind of tweak it slightly.
[2103.06] Frank: And it's, you know, even in lots of pretty heavy industrial machinery, it's pretty common to have some pit loops that you have to tune.
[2113.06] Frank: And just like you say, you up the P until it starts wobbling back it off.
[2117.06] Frank: And and it's that's just that is the way you do things, unfortunately.
[2123.06] Krunked: But you should be able to tell a computer to do that eventually.
[2131.06] Frank: I mean, particularly with flying quads, there's also a matter at some point of it being kind of, you know, down to taste.
[2140.06] Frank: Like some people are going to want it to be, I don't know, I feel like some people are going to want it to be tuned slightly differently to other people.
[2150.06] Frank: And I don't know if that's kind of part of sort of what you do as a service.
[2155.06] Frank: Like how much of it is is you going this needs to be tuned this way and how much of it is someone goes, it doesn't feel quite right.
[2163.06] Frank: I want it to be better in this way.
[2166.06] Frank: And you're like, OK, well, maybe try some of this.
[2169.06] Frank: How how much of that is are you trying to have to work out what people want it to fly like?
[2175.06] Krunked: Yeah. And I try to get that out of people every single time they send me a log or a DVR, which I have to poke people all the time and forget to tell me.
[2184.06] Krunked: I'm like, so how did it fly?
[2187.06] Krunked: Like they just send me a lot of like, here it is.
[2191.06] Krunked: I'm like, OK, well, tell me, did it fly?
[2193.06] Krunked: Like, did it fly?
[2194.06] Krunked: Awesome.
[2196.06] Krunked: What's what's the deal?
[2198.06] Krunked: And because, you know, sometimes it can be objective or subjective rather, where I think it flies great and they think it flies like crap.
[2208.06] Krunked: And with beta flight, it really comes down to your your PD balances, your PD balance, your PD gains pretty much can be your PD gains, especially if you want to get into like no prop wash zone.
[2222.06] Krunked: You just need to turn it up in where you're like the feeling comes from with data flight is the stick response and the feed forward transition.
[2231.06] Krunked: So those two parameters, they're in tandem together.
[2234.06] Krunked: And what I do is just crank the out of feed forward about like four point seven or four point eight or one point eight rather.
[2243.06] Krunked: And then then what I do to taper it off a little bit and make it a little more juicy or smooth is put the feed forward in transition just at one point.
[2252.06] Krunked: And then, of course, with a little bit of magic in my rates and then, you know, just a little bit of smoothness in the middle, like point five for expo.
[2261.06] Krunked: And I can be really what I call it is real smooth in the middle and you on the edge.
[2268.06] Krunked: Bam, you know, like bam, bam.
[2269.06] Krunked: If you ever watch me fly, it's very snap, snap, like really fast and then slow and fast, slow, trying to get that.
[2279.06] Frank: I bet it's not as harsh as Jack's.
[2282.06] Jack: I don't know.
[2283.06] Jack: Like I should.
[2285.06] Jack: Do you want me to tell me if you want.
[2291.06] Frank: If you want to step changes, it's like Jack's expo is somehow set up.
[2296.06] Frank: So it's like you've got nothing in the middle and then you get to the edge and all of a sudden it's a million degrees a second.
[2302.06] Frank: That's Jack's way to fly.
[2306.06] Krunked: All right.
[2307.06] Krunked: My rates are eleven sixty per second and it's one point four five zero point seven five zero point five four.
[2314.06] Krunked: Those are my freestyle rates.
[2316.06] Krunked: I've learned this weekend this past weekend that those are not my race rates.
[2324.06] Curry: I'm interested in that about having the super rate lower but having your base RC rate higher.
[2332.06] Curry: So I always use like my base RC rate of one and then usually I dump my super rate up to point eight and then I might put some expo to smooth stuff out.
[2342.06] Curry: But I often notice that people get the same degree response by upping their RC rate and lowering their super.
[2348.06] Curry: And it very certainly changes the curve, doesn't it, about where where it flattens and where it goes.
[2353.06] Curry: But I've never really experimented with with having the higher RC rate and the lower super rate.
[2359.06] Krunked: It's really it's really subtle.
[2361.06] Krunked: The expo is where it gets really unsettled.
[2365.06] Krunked: What are we looking at?
[2366.06] Curry: Yeah, this is what KISS looks like, is it?
[2368.06] Krunked: Oh, yep.
[2369.06] Krunked: Yeah.
[2370.06] Frank: That's not bad, is it?
[2373.06] Frank: I think you've made that look better.
[2377.06] Krunked: Oh, those aren't too bad.
[2378.06] Krunked: They look a little bit like Mr. Steel rates a little.
[2383.54] Frank: I reckon it's just like something in your like in your Taranistan.
[2388.54] Frank: There's like some some curves, some lines, some something in there.
[2394.54] Frank: Or maybe it just gimbals just not connected.
[2396.54] Krunked: Does that look wrong?
[2398.54] Krunked: Pitch is too high on P.
[2402.54] Krunked: Really?
[2403.54] Krunked: And your D is too high.
[2404.54] Krunked: This is like a Mr. Steel tune on your on your D.
[2407.54] Krunked: But it depends.
[2408.54] Krunked: What motor is around this?
[2410.54] Jack: Team motors, the V1s, the F60s, 2450.
[2420.91] Krunked: Okay.
[2421.91] Krunked: I would definitely.
[2423.91] Krunked: Here, you can show them the tune.
[2425.91] Krunked: So take your, see where it says presets.
[2428.91] Krunked: Drop that down to user and then drop that down and go find crunked golden starting point.
[2437.32] Jack: Hang on.
[2438.32] Jack: That's f, g.
[2441.32] Jack: I know there's quite a bit.
[2446.7] Jack: I might have to tell me if we've gone past there.
[2452.94] Krunked: There.
[2454.94] Jack: See the golden starting point.
[2455.94] Krunked: Yep.
[2456.94] Jack: That one.
[2457.94] Jack: Yep.
[2458.94] Jack: Now press.
[2459.94] Jack: Yeah.
[2460.94] Jack: This, this, this board anyway, because check this out.
[2464.94] Jack: Right.
[2465.94] Jack: Hang on.
[2466.94] Jack: That's pitch.
[2467.94] Jack: That's your.
[2469.94] Jack: This is roll.
[2473.8] Jack: Doesn't do anything.
[2477.8] Jack: And yeah.
[2478.8] Jack: Kiss.
[2479.8] Jack: Yeah.
[2480.8] Jack: Kiss.
[2481.8] Jack: Kiss.
[2482.8] Jack: Don't answer emails anymore.
[2483.8] Jack: Fine.
[2484.8] UNKNOWN: We know.
[2485.8] Jack: Yeah.
[2486.8] Curry: Yeah.
[2487.8] Curry: You've been trying to tell me that kiss is wonderful and is the best ever.
[2489.8] Curry: I'm not convinced by this board.
[2491.8] Frank: I, I think that it may have rolled into a few too many trees.
[2496.8] Frank: Yeah.
[2497.8] Frank: That's, that's my diagnosis.
[2498.8] Jack: Yeah.
[2499.8] Jack: Or it didn't like Sonic Sonic.
[2501.8] Krunked: I love that when I'm on the beta flight groups on Facebook and someone
[2506.8] Krunked: will say, so I had a really bad crash and now XYZ doesn't happen.
[2511.8] Krunked: My response is always crash.
[2515.8] Krunked: You crashed.
[2518.8] Jack: You said it.
[2519.8] Jack: You think that's why.
[2520.8] Jack: Yeah.
[2521.8] Jack: I used, I used the shower to my boy Aries.
[2523.8] Jack: I used his discount code.
[2525.8] Jack: So my new, my new controller is coming tomorrow.
[2529.8] Jack: Yeah.
[2530.8] Jack: Thanks Aries.
[2531.8] Frank: As much as it's, it's kind of a solid state gyro.
[2535.8] Frank: Really.
[2536.8] Frank: There is a little bit of silicon wobbling around in there.
[2540.8] Frank: That will break at some point.
[2543.8] Jack: Unfortunately.
[2544.8] Jack: Yeah.
[2545.8] Jack: Like my GoPro lens.
[2547.8] Frank: I mean, yeah, that's, that's slightly different.
[2550.8] Frank: Um, that is just flying it into a tree.
[2554.8] Frank: Um, but yeah, the gyro will at some point break.
[2558.8] Frank: Robin FPV says, Jack, don't you, don't you swap out your gyros?
[2562.8] Frank: Well, that seems like a thing that you do, even if it was working,
[2565.8] Frank: just de-solder it and solder something else on there.
[2568.8] Jack: You can, but it's, um, like, I think like, yes, it's a lot of hassle though.
[2576.8] Jack: And also they don't like heat very much, do they?
[2578.8] Frank: It's a lot of hassle.
[2581.8] Frank: I'm sorry.
[2582.8] Frank: Have you seen your audio setup?
[2584.8] Frank: Have you seen anything that you do in your, in your room, on your bench?
[2589.8] Frank: Like you live for hassle.
[2591.8] Frank: You make things that like no one will ever see, no one will ever understand
[2597.8] Frank: what you've done, but you will put weeks of labor into making something awkward.
[2604.8] Curry: There was another useful question from Robin as well.
[2607.8] Curry: Actually, I'll just put the screen here.
[2608.8] Curry: What do you think is people's biggest barrier to understanding tuning concepts?
[2612.8] Curry: Is it the language?
[2613.8] Curry: And for me, it was okay when it was just a PID, but now it's feed forward, filtering,
[2619.8] Curry: all extra things that I haven't bothered to learn because I'm too lazy and just want to fly.
[2625.8] Curry: What is it in your opinion?
[2627.8] Krunked: In my opinion, people get really, really caught up on little things like set point tracking
[2633.8] Krunked: and filter tuning and other things that like they just get very obsessed over.
[2641.8] Krunked: I just certainly, you certainly have to just brush over like does it fly well?
[2646.8] Krunked: Okay, cool.
[2647.8] Krunked: Is this that point like is the PD balance great and your step response on point,
[2653.8] Krunked: but your stick response and your log is a little off, but it flies like a dream.
[2658.8] Krunked: Stop looking at the log.
[2660.8] Krunked: You know, like there's comes to that's a people over, over tune to a point to a fault
[2667.8] Krunked: where all of a sudden that's all they're doing.
[2669.8] Krunked: And they have a great flying quad and then a crappy flying quad within the same session
[2674.8] Krunked: because they're changing stuff constantly or being really nitpicky about something
[2680.8] Krunked: or that's where I see a lot of people getting stuck on.
[2683.8] Krunked: But my set point tracking and I'm looking at it.
[2685.8] Krunked: I'm like, this log looks fine.
[2687.8] Krunked: Like, okay, so do you want the log to look nicer or do you want it to fly better?
[2693.8] Krunked: Like, what's just, what is it?
[2695.8] Krunked: You know, like are you chasing a log or are you trying to make your quad fly good?
[2701.8] Frank: I can definitely see people within the FPV community getting a bit too carried away
[2708.8] Frank: with something that, yeah, no one else will be able to tell from seeing
[2715.8] Frank: and doesn't actually lead to their experience of flying it.
[2719.8] Frank: But they just want to know that it's the best it can be.
[2722.8] Curry: Perhaps there's a special achievement for a perfect log.
[2725.8] Curry: It's a little thing that's being achievement unlocked.
[2727.8] Krunked: Right.
[2728.8] Krunked: And a lot of the stuff that people also get hung up on can be really,
[2732.8] Krunked: like I think even Stinger Swarm or even Steel might have said it.
[2736.8] Krunked: I think that any, a good pilot can fly any quad, any tune.
[2741.8] Krunked: It doesn't matter.
[2742.8] Krunked: Like there's a lot of this stuff that you could, you can tune your quad
[2746.8] Krunked: till you're blue in the face.
[2747.8] Krunked: But if you still come straight down flat into your prop wash,
[2752.8] Krunked: your quad's going to shake, stuff like that.
[2757.24] Krunked: It's just you kind of got to get over the efficiency of the machine
[2763.24] Krunked: and overcome, I suppose, with your piloting.
[2766.24] Frank: At some point, you've just got to get in the stick time and learn to fly well,
[2772.24] Frank: which I have not done.
[2774.24] Frank: But Curry said about the feed forward and the other parts of tuning
[2781.24] Frank: that have come in over the past few years.
[2784.24] Frank: In terms of the P and the I and the D,
[2787.24] Frank: we had that GIF that I'm guessing was from Wikipedia, I don't know,
[2792.24] Frank: about kind of the traditional PID loops and tuning that
[2796.24] Frank: and getting the step response right.
[2798.24] Frank: But how does the feed forward, do you have a kind of concept in your head
[2803.24] Frank: of what the feed forward actually is doing or means?
[2807.24] Krunked: Yeah, so feed forward is using your set point as,
[2812.24] Krunked: I don't want to say it wrong because someone will say something,
[2815.24] Krunked: but the best way that I can think about it is it's basically,
[2820.24] Krunked: it's helping the P term push before there's any error.
[2825.24] Krunked: So, excuse me, for P, I and D, you always need error, right?
[2832.24] Krunked: So, you always need your set point in gyro to be moving away.
[2837.24] Krunked: So, like when you push it to the left and you're doing a flip,
[2840.24] Krunked: your quad at some point is, your set point is telling it to go left
[2845.24] Krunked: and the quad is not exactly where it's telling it to go.
[2849.24] Krunked: So, P and D will start growing and start pushing it, right?
[2853.24] Krunked: So, it has to have error.
[2855.24] Krunked: So, you're always working in the past.
[2858.24] Krunked: So, with feed forward, what it does is try to look in the future
[2862.24] Krunked: or the present as much as possible with your set point.
[2867.24] Krunked: So, it's looking at how fast you're moving it and where you're moving it
[2872.24] Krunked: and it'll start pushing before.
[2874.24] Krunked: And it'll also stop before it causes overshoot, hopefully.
[2880.24] Frank: Okay, yeah.
[2882.24] Krunked: If you look at the log, you can see the feed forward push before P and D
[2887.24] Krunked: even start, but then it'll stop and it'll go straight down.
[2891.24] Krunked: And that's because it's, okay, enough.
[2893.24] Krunked: Now, P and D take over, let off so it doesn't push too far.
[2898.24] Krunked: So, it's reducing the PID sum as well.
[2902.24] Frank: Yeah.
[2903.24] Frank: So, it's like, because you've thrown your stick to the left,
[2908.24] Frank: you're definitely going to need some amount of left input.
[2911.24] Frank: We're not sure quite how much yet.
[2913.24] Frank: We'll work that one out once we're actually near that angle, but...
[2916.24] Frank: Exactly.
[2917.24] Frank: We're going to put some in until we know that we're kind of about right.
[2922.24] Krunked: Right.
[2923.24] Krunked: And when you're saying, when we're about right, et cetera,
[2925.24] Krunked: you're talking like 8,000 times a second.
[2929.24] Krunked: So, like, you're about right, it's insane.
[2934.24] Krunked: The computational power that's going into those loops.
[2937.24] Krunked: So, as those... Exactly.
[2940.24] Krunked: What it's doing is reducing the PID sum
[2943.24] Krunked: so it can put the set point and the gyro trace closer together.
[2949.24] Krunked: And that's locked in.
[2952.24] Frank: And is that what...
[2955.24] Frank: Is something to do with that, the PD gains and PD balances?
[2959.24] Frank: I haven't actually seen that one before,
[2961.24] Frank: so that might be a new one on me, or maybe I'm just kind of missing the point there.
[2965.24] Krunked: Would you say that again?
[2966.24] Krunked: Are you saying, is there a slider for it?
[2968.24] Frank: Yeah, the PD gains and PD balance isn't something I've seen before,
[2972.24] Frank: so I'm just wondering if that's something to do with that,
[2974.24] Frank: or whether that's something else entirely.
[2976.24] Krunked: No, there is a slider for it called stick response slider,
[2979.24] Krunked: which directly manipulates the feed forward numbers.
[2983.24] Krunked: The more stick response on the sliders...
[2986.24] Krunked: So, the sliders, like I said, have made a world of difference
[2989.24] Krunked: because the PD balance is the ratio between P and D.
[2994.24] Frank: Oh, right. Okay.
[2996.24] Krunked: So, that's your ratio, and then once you have that set,
[2999.24] Krunked: you can move the PD gain, and that'll keep the ratio locked
[3003.24] Krunked: and move the PD together in that ratio.
[3008.24] Krunked: So, once you get your step response good, which is critically damp,
[3013.24] Krunked: and your step response is cool,
[3017.24] Krunked: then you look at your set point tracking
[3020.24] Krunked: and how close your set point is to your gyro.
[3024.24] Krunked: And if you want it closer, like you want it really tight and sharp,
[3028.24] Krunked: you can turn up feed forward until you like it.
[3032.24] Krunked: And like I said, from there,
[3034.24] Krunked: you can take it one step further in with feed forward transition.
[3038.24] Krunked: It's basically like inverted TPA for feed forward, if that makes sense.
[3044.24] Krunked: I never understood TPA.
[3046.24] Jack: I'm not going to do. I can't do it, but not.
[3050.24] Krunked: It's also a misnomer because in data flight, it's only D term now by default.
[3054.24] Krunked: So, it should just be called D term attenuation
[3059.24] Krunked: instead of total pit attenuation, throttle pit attenuation.
[3066.24] Curry: The I thing on TPA, when it came out,
[3070.24] Curry: I thought it was dropping the I because it was expecting
[3074.24] Curry: a certain amount of something. I can't remember now.
[3077.24] Curry: Maybe in the past, not real sure.
[3081.24] Jack: Did you ever fiddle with it on case or do you leave it default?
[3084.24] Krunked: Which part?
[3086.24] Krunked: The TPA.
[3088.24] Krunked: Oh, now I've kissed my philosophy is try to keep it default as possible.
[3093.24] Krunked: So, I just feel like they know something that I don't
[3098.24] Krunked: of why they need to be exactly in that curve.
[3103.24] Krunked: So, I try my hardest to get the PID tune to conform to that TPA profile.
[3110.24] Krunked: So, it's just one more layer.
[3113.24] Krunked: Honestly, KISS flies so well already.
[3116.24] Krunked: You just try to keep as much default as possible.
[3121.24] Krunked: It's the same philosophy with data flight, really.
[3124.24] Krunked: But unfortunately, it's just less that you keep default.
[3129.24] Frank: I guess most of these come out of the fact that you've got quads
[3134.24] Frank: that, like you say, most of them are going to be about five inches.
[3137.24] Frank: And so, there's the developers there going,
[3139.24] Frank: oh, we've found an issue where in this particular case,
[3143.24] Frank: you don't have as good a step response as you could.
[3148.24] Frank: We'll write a little bit of code that deals with that particular case.
[3152.24] Frank: But we don't know exactly how strong that little edge case
[3156.24] Frank: bit of code needs to be.
[3158.24] Frank: So, we'll put another little fudge factor there that we can tune.
[3161.24] Frank: And then hopefully, at some point, everyone agrees that that's about
[3164.24] Frank: where it should be, and we can just hard code that,
[3167.24] Frank: and we won't have to show that one ever again.
[3169.24] Frank: In the same way that sort of in the olden days,
[3171.24] Frank: you'd pick a different PID controller.
[3174.24] Frank: You know, you could pick your multi-we or your...
[3178.24] Frank: What was it?
[3179.24] Frank: Harry Currie.
[3180.24] Frank: Harry Currie.
[3181.24] Frank: Floating and integer.
[3182.24] Frank: All of those.
[3185.24] Curry: I only just remembered those, now you've mentioned them.
[3188.24] Curry: That's the thing of the past, isn't it?
[3190.24] Jack: I remember them. I remember them.
[3192.24] Curry: Because I was like, I want floating point.
[3194.24] Curry: That sounds more accurate than using integers.
[3198.24] Frank: And that was a thing of, like, everyone would huddle around at the field
[3203.24] Frank: and go, oh, no, I've tried this one, and this one's really good.
[3206.24] Frank: Oh, no, I tried that one.
[3207.24] Frank: And then, sort of, eventually, everyone kind of goes,
[3210.24] Frank: okay, we've settled on, this is the way that it's going to be implemented.
[3214.24] Frank: That is the big controller that's in there,
[3216.24] Frank: and you don't have to worry about it anymore.
[3218.24] Frank: And that has been my philosophy of tuning,
[3220.24] Frank: is if you wait long enough, options go away.
[3223.24] Frank: And I don't have to worry about them anymore.
[3226.24] Frank: And I'm very glad that there are people like you out there
[3229.24] Frank: who are working them out in the meantime.
[3232.24] Jack: Win off.
[3234.24] Jack: Kong, do you find if you crash, this affects the PIDs?
[3239.24] Krunked: Not so much, no.
[3241.24] Krunked: That is going to be your props or your frame.
[3246.24] Krunked: It will affect your PIDs, et cetera,
[3248.24] Krunked: if you delaminate the hell out of your frame.
[3251.24] Krunked: And you cause some crazy motor noise.
[3254.24] Krunked: And you have to turn stuff down, like where it's old beater quad.
[3258.24] Krunked: But typically, no.
[3260.24] Krunked: And you should not have to change your PIDs after crashing.
[3264.24] Krunked: That's indicative of a physical thing that's happened,
[3266.24] Krunked: that's changed with the characteristics of the quad.
[3269.24] Jack: So, all things considered, you shouldn't have to.
[3273.74] Jack: Frame grease.
[3275.74] Jack: Oh, my God, this is the dentist, isn't it? It's kebab.
[3279.74] Jack: No, it's crisscrosser.
[3282.74] Jack: Oh, yeah, dampening grease, isn't it?
[3286.74] Jack: One micron of electrical tape is enough to soft mount your arms.
[3294.38] Jack: Oh, no.
[3296.38] Frank: It's a soft mounting, is that what it is?
[3298.38] Curry: What are we talking about here?
[3300.38] Krunked: Yeah, I suggested to Chris Rosser today in my Discord
[3304.38] Krunked: that they just send the frame in a sardine can of grease
[3309.38] Krunked: and just so the whole quad is just dripping in grease the whole time.
[3314.38] Krunked: I just thought that was a funny visualization.
[3316.38] Krunked: Just a grease quad.
[3319.38] Krunked: Yeah, with a pit of bread.
[3321.38] Jack: For like kebab.
[3324.38] Jack: Greasy askebab.
[3326.38] Jack: Oh, my.
[3328.38] Frank: Maybe it'd make it easier to retrieve from out of trees, I don't know.
[3332.38] Jack: Oh, my God.
[3333.38] Jack: It'd be like if KFC made a quad.
[3336.38] Jack: It'd just be like a bar of soap in your hand.
[3340.38] Krunked: No, evidently, Chris Rosser is a aerospace vibration guy.
[3347.38] Krunked: I don't remember exactly what he does, but he's been making
[3350.38] Krunked: some pretty cool videos about frame residents,
[3353.38] Krunked: modes with different frames that are popular.
[3356.38] Krunked: He did Apex.
[3357.38] Krunked: He did the glide.
[3359.38] Krunked: He did the armintan marmot, I believe.
[3363.38] Krunked: And maybe a couple others.
[3365.38] Krunked: For some reason, he thinks that grease.
[3368.38] Krunked: I'm sure it probably in industry works really well.
[3371.38] Krunked: I'm not sure that I'm ready to grease up my quad.
[3377.38] Jack: Do you have a Patreon or a coffee or
[3382.38] Jack: anyway to donate or anything?
[3384.38] Jack: Or is it just by your service?
[3388.38] Krunked: No, it's just a service.
[3390.38] Krunked: I mean, you can always donate if you want to my PayPal.
[3394.38] Krunked: Just ask me and I'll send it to you.
[3396.38] Krunked: It's going to be a tip.
[3398.38] Frank: We do have your link in the description below,
[3402.38] Frank: crunkedquads.com, if anyone is interested.
[3406.38] Frank: And it looks like that takes you to a Google forms.
[3411.38] Frank: Super simple.
[3412.38] Krunked: It's funny how I conceived of the crunked quads thing.
[3417.38] Krunked: I did it while driving.
[3419.38] Krunked: And I did it while driving back from a vacation.
[3423.38] Krunked: And I just did it in the car at a rest area.
[3426.38] Krunked: I was like, I'm just going to do this with form real quick.
[3428.38] Krunked: And then I bought a domain and just pointed at it.
[3430.38] Krunked: And by the time I got home, I had somebody
[3432.38] Krunked: who was submitted already.
[3434.38] Frank: I'm like, oh.
[3435.38] Frank: That works.
[3436.38] Frank: It's really simple.
[3437.38] Krunked: Just point a domain at a Google form.
[3439.38] Krunked: Cool.
[3440.38] Krunked: Done.
[3443.38] Frank: The best temporary solutions always become permanent solutions.
[3447.38] Krunked: Yeah, just it's easy.
[3448.38] Krunked: It's simple.
[3449.38] Krunked: You want to get a hold of me?
[3450.38] Krunked: Go type in the form.
[3451.38] Krunked: I'll send it.
[3452.38] Krunked: It goes to my email.
[3455.38] Jack: Yeah, I'll have to.
[3457.38] Jack: I'll have to send you the light.
[3459.38] Jack: I've seen my buddy.
[3460.38] Jack: They'd be damned.
[3461.38] Jack: Gifty one.
[3462.38] Jack: I'll have to send you that tune and see what you think.
[3465.38] Jack: And maybe I might take you up because I've just moved over
[3468.38] Jack: to reverb frames.
[3470.38] Jack: So I have to start again.
[3472.38] Jack: I might.
[3473.38] Jack: I might take you up, man.
[3474.38] Jack: I might have to fill that.
[3475.38] Krunked: You might just be able to use the starting point, honestly.
[3479.38] Jack: We'll see.
[3481.38] Jack: Well, I want you to critique and rip the s*** into me.
[3484.38] Jack: So we might have to get you on for the last 10 minutes of a
[3487.38] Jack: few shows and be like, no, dickhead.
[3489.38] Jack: It's this.
[3494.38] Jack: Well, should we leave it there, guys?
[3498.38] Jack: You've been listening to Let's Show Now.
[3500.38] Jack: A big thank you to everyone who donated so that Win Davis,
[3504.38] Jack: Grumpy FPV, how many packs did I fly to Monday, Frank?
[3511.38] Jack: Six packs.
[3512.38] Curry: Doesn't matter what the situation is.
[3515.38] Curry: Nine.
[3516.38] Curry: This is one pack Jack we're talking about.
[3518.38] Jack: Nine.
[3519.38] Jack: Zero FPV, the best mod ever.
[3522.38] Jack: If you see that guy, he's awesome.
[3525.38] Jack: Menace RC, thank you very much, man.
[3527.38] Jack: If you need any Menace, if you need some antennas, man,
[3531.38] Jack: let them know.
[3532.38] Jack: Send him an email.
[3533.38] Jack: I'll tell him we sent you because he's a lovely guy.
[3536.38] Jack: See what you think of the tuning of his antenna.
[3539.38] Jack: There's no PIDs without him.
[3541.38] Jack: There is tuning, though.
[3543.38] Frank: We'll have to get a load more fire next week to make up for
[3550.38] Frank: some of the donations this week.
[3552.38] Frank: So tune in next week for lots of fire and Jack's setting his
[3556.38] Frank: hair a lot.
[3557.38] Frank: Yeah, no worries.
[3558.38] Jack: Yeah, we'll light those guys up next week.
[3561.38] Jack: Thank you.
[3562.38] Jack: You've been joined by everyone's favourite, Curry Kitten.
[3566.38] Jack: Goodbye.
[3568.38] Jack: Our Lord of Master, Andrew Frank.
[3571.38] Jack: Bye.
[3572.38] Jack: Crunked.
[3573.38] Jack: Thank you so much.
[3575.38] Jack: Yes, sir.
[3576.38] Jack: Thanks for having me.
[3577.38] Jack: And I've been bright until I fly.
[3579.38] Jack: Thank you guys so much.
[3581.38] Jack: Remember to hit like, subscribe, share, tell people,
[3585.38] Jack: and don't forget the hashtag Tony's mum.
[3588.38] Jack: That's Tony's mum.
[3592.38] Jack: No worries.
[3593.38] Jack: Thank you.
[3594.38] Krunked: Good night.
[3595.38] Krunked: Bye.
[3597.38] UNKNOWN: Thank you.