=== Let's Drone Out — Episode 393 ===
Title: LDO 393 - Classifications and Chromatic Abberation (feat Painless360)
Recorded: 2023-03-09
Hosts: Jack "Brightontillifly" Nash, Stephen "Belrik" Howell, Koel "Koala" Anderson, Andrew "Frank" Hyams
Guest(s): Lee "Painless360" Schofield
Total audience: 1,473
Platforms: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1IwelGP5VI); SoundCloud (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/1466610469-letsdroneout-ldo-393-classifications-and-chromatic-abberation-feat-painless360.mp3)
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[0.0] Jack: Hello and you're listening to let's drone out and special thank you to our lovely patrons that help donate
[7.48] Jack: So that we could pay the editor to remove the swear words and silly things. We say
[12.56] Jack: Massive. Thank you to call us campus art folk now Sam Dharma on with the show
[51.66] Jack: Hello and welcome to let's turn out
[54.94] Jack: Tonight you are joined by the man with the moustache do hello
[61.42] Jack: my buddy Cole
[63.58] Jack: Howdy and the the one of my most favorite people in the world who hopefully we have an upset
[71.14] Jack: The great the epic the the man who knew multi we
[78.1] Jack: painless 360
[79.66] Lee: Hey, Jack. Good evening. How you doing, buddy?
[81.94] Jack: Yeah, and I'm bright until I fly and
[85.7] Jack: yep, today is Thursday the 9th 3rd 23 in theory and
[92.82] Jack: We finally finished the tier maker the tier list reviewing
[101.22] Jack: Reviewing the various manufacturers of products that we all
[105.7] Jack: Use love and maybe don't have any experience with
[110.9] Jack: But equally excited about I do feel bad about missing out on arm a tan
[117.1] Jack: Because obviously who could forget the rooster? I mean, you know who didn't have one of those
[124.1] Jack: You know titanium on a quad. I do feel bad. Just a quick whip round
[129.98] Jack: Where would you put on a tan Steven? Do you have any on the tan stuff? I always thought they looked a bit old and
[137.62] Stephen: Never really. Yeah, just take care of all of that
[140.9] Koel: So yeah, I was gonna say I've I've never used any I've heard that they're tough as nails though, but
[149.14] Koel: That's about it
[151.34] Jack: Lee, what about you? I?
[153.98] Lee: Really like our time. I like the guy behind it the guy behind it's called Chris
[160.46] Lee: Chris actually built my first ever proper quad for me
[164.18] Lee: I ordered it from a forum and RC groups
[167.86] Lee: He was called Bob E pine in the forums and he was making these quads with KK
[175.1] Lee: 2.0 flight controllers in and it was made out of machined CNC aluminium
[181.94] Lee: Bill it that's what it was made out of back then and
[185.54] Lee: Why I I actually ordered one of these because I kept seeing them. This is back in the day before
[191.98] Lee: Pre-made quad for even a thing and I still remember he he showed me how we how it would fly
[199.94] Lee: In an underground car park probably underground his own building full of cars
[204.94] Lee: And he was literally popping it from one end to the other
[210.18] Lee: He's an amazing pilot
[212.58] Lee: And I've never yet managed to duplicate what he did with it and I still have it
[217.14] Lee: So I'm afraid I'm a tan from that point on and Chris
[220.5] Lee: I've always had a special little place in my heart that that the frames
[224.9] Lee: They might not be as sexy or as great for freestyle or those kind of things and if that's your gig
[229.98] Lee: then you know what I absolutely understand, but in terms of
[234.1] Lee: Bulletproof frames that are finished incredibly well
[238.66] Lee: You can't really go wrong. The other thing is I'm a tan's won the few that has a real lifetime warranty
[244.62] Lee: So if you if you bust something
[247.82] Lee: He will replace it
[250.14] Lee: There are other people who have claimed to have lifetime warranties who are now are in business. So I'm not sure how that works
[256.3] Jack: Let me go on to you. Yeah
[259.58] Lee: Yeah, if you can if you can buy where he's moved house to you might be on knock on his door
[263.42] Lee: But Chris Chris actually does and most of us we haven't managed to break any of his stuff yet
[270.02] Lee: But there are a small handful of customers that take full advantage of that warranty
[275.58] Lee: Chris has told me at length how literally some of them have gone through dozens of arms and base plates and things
[281.38] Lee: Because they smash the hell out of it, but I touch wood. I'm not nice to break one yet
[285.82] Lee: So I would put it right at the top because also the ready the ready to fly stuff that he sells
[291.66] Lee: I
[293.78] Lee: Think I'm a good soldier until I get one of his quads in and now I feel like a hack
[298.82] Lee: Because he actually I think didn't he say that the guys he employs to build the quads
[306.18] Lee: Are on one pay level
[308.94] Lee: Until they can demonstrate they can solder to the standard that for the production and then they get bumped up to the full pay grade
[317.1] Lee: So basically, yeah, you have until you can actually build them properly. You don't get the full whack. So
[323.34] Lee: So yeah, they work. They are works of art
[326.42] Koel: I was actually wondering are they one of the first people that are one of the first companies that did that sort of
[332.42] Koel: Like the camera protection at the front and all the cage. Yeah, the camera cage. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting design choice
[338.82] Koel: It's definitely looks robust. I
[341.42] Lee: I'm not sure how useful it is now. I mean back when you know cameras were a lot of money
[348.58] Lee: It made a lot of
[350.74] Lee: But the thing is I think they did get a little bit over engineered because they started with a simple cage
[356.62] Lee: Which was to CNC'd shoulder pieces with two like braces across. Yeah, and then he went to a piece where the middle piece
[365.78] Lee: Could actually be rotated the bit that held the camera. So the camera didn't rotate the whole piece rotating. It was held in place with
[372.82] Lee: Titanium screws and all kinds of stuff, you know, it's probably the kind of technology that you put in a knee replacement
[378.86] Lee: But I but now in the latest ones he's gone back has made it a little bit simpler
[382.14] Lee: I think that's a good thing because you can over you can over to engineer this stuff
[386.3] Koel: Yeah, well, and I've also seen the even the GoPro mounts. That's a very unique style mount
[393.26] Koel: You know to to attach a GoPro it's not the same sort of four bolts is it am I right with that or
[401.18] Lee: Yeah, it well, there was a couple of different cages
[403.5] Lee: One of them had the mount that was part of the cage
[406.66] Lee: Some of them have them separately because it's a lot of weight to have on the cage on with everything else
[412.22] Lee: It's like every time Chris thinks he's got it sorted, you know, six months later. I'll get an email from him going, right
[418.58] Lee: I've had an idea. I'm doing this and I'm
[423.98] Lee: But it's that it's one of those people who were in the hobby before it was a big thing
[429.42] Lee: We're in the hobby all the way through the boom and now the bubbles burst and we're all back to normal
[435.06] Lee: Then he's still in it because he actually wants to do it
[438.26] Lee: And that's why I quite like it is passionate about it rather than using it because he thought he could make some money
[443.58] Lee: So I've got a lot of time for those guys
[446.42] Jack: the the only thing that I didn't like was
[450.58] Jack: And I don't I mean argue with me if it's not the case. I just didn't like the uni body
[457.66] Jack: Rooster, you know the whole bottom plate and arms were one big sheet of carbon because wasn't there a factor of
[465.3] Jack: One side the arm was really strong and the other sides
[469.02] Jack: You know, they were weak because of the weave of the carbon fiber
[473.94] Lee: Well, he went through a stage didn't he way was using?
[477.26] Lee: NASA grade carbon fiber or some there's some what is it managed to get his hands on
[482.58] Lee: It got it probably fell off the back of a lorry in China or something. But it but he had this special stuff that
[489.86] Lee: But the thing is when he I know he used to drive him mad because he would do
[495.22] Lee: one with separate arms and
[497.22] Lee: Then you'd get lots of hassle about the fact that it was separate arms and that you have to then figure out a really
[503.5] Lee: Yeah, so so yeah, you have the extra weight because you have the brackets and the braces but also some pilots get really
[511.36] Lee: Finicky about making sure that when the arms go together
[513.92] Lee: They lock together and they are they are completely rigid. They become one piece
[518.36] Lee: So we designed that and then everyone would come along and go all that. No, we don't want that
[522.92] Lee: We want a one-piece black bottom plate with the arms in it
[526.48] Lee: So they developed that and then the other half had come out and go no, hang on a minute
[531.24] Lee: We had separate arms. We like separate arms bring separate arms back. So in the end you ended up with I was it the rooster and the
[537.52] Lee: Not the gecko was it the gecko was the little one there was two that was basically exactly the same model
[543.72] Lee: But one had a solid base plate and the other one had four movable arms
[550.72] Lee: Yeah, he just okay fine I'll give I'll give everyone the option I mean
[556.64] Lee: Yeah, okay, so you're a separate spatter
[560.12] Lee: Stephen what do you feel?
[562.76] Stephen: There's like a cut-off somewhere between I think three inches and four inches where separate arms start to make sense
[570.12] Stephen: But on smaller stuff, I prefer uni uni body uni frame type. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, right cool
[577.0] Koel: Yeah, I I've only ever flown
[579.76] Koel: You know separate piece frames, so I don't really have a good opinion
[585.16] Jack: Yeah, the other thing
[587.84] Jack: That
[589.36] Jack: Your love arm a tan for is
[592.44] Jack: Bardwell and I'm turn fell out because Bartwell said something wrong. I believe
[597.88] Jack: but legal notice any views
[604.44] Jack: Historical things that I may not understand or get right a personal may not the use of others or this show
[613.16] Jack: But yeah, there was a bit of
[615.32] Jack: Drama
[616.68] Jack: Yeah, I know, but you know like I haven't got a beef with Bardwell, but it was like dude
[623.28] Jack: What are you doing? But you know these things happen?
[627.16] Jack: So anyway, I send I've also shared the tear maker in the discord
[632.56] Jack: So if you want to give it a go post it if Cole can be bothered and remembers
[638.06] Jack: He can also I can share the link so you can fill it in yourselves
[642.16] Jack: I haven't had any emails of people filling it in so paint the lovely painless. I'll move you to the top
[649.4] Koel: Did things get did things get changed around on this tear maker because I thought no ultra was S tier
[655.48] Jack: No, this is this is Lee's
[665.96] Jack: 360 has had a shift around
[668.52] Jack: And I'd like to remind everyone right that he has
[675.48] Jack: almost
[677.52] Jack: 2,000 videos, right and he's got a hundred and fifty-eight subscribers. So
[683.8] Jack: Alexander you
[685.4] Jack: That are yeah thousand you might want to send him. It's not sorry. That's the dyslexic. Yeah
[690.0] Jack: Thank you
[692.0] Jack: Play that
[694.0] Stephen: Impulse RC in in unknown. That's that's I don't I don't
[706.72] Lee: This is why it's a little bit different is that I am not just a quad
[710.68] Lee: Pilot and I'm not into racing. So so
[715.04] Lee: So my view and this is I think what Jack and I were talking about
[718.8] Lee: My view is very much what I'm doing with and playing with and I think this is something
[723.72] Lee: I think it's important to say at the very beginning in addition to the legal caveat
[728.4] Lee: All of these things I think are very subjective and very personal, right?
[731.92] Lee: So so manufacturer that someone else might use enjoy and get a lot of love from and have a great time with
[740.08] Lee: They might put right towards the top and I assume that s because it didn't come with destructions, right?
[745.24] Lee: So I'm assuming that s is super duper and it goes down to you
[749.52] Stephen: I just thought they might see it been around for so long that you were bound to have reviewed something by them
[754.88] Lee: No, no, not not really. So I tend to
[759.08] Lee: Use the same products over and over again
[762.52] Lee: Particularly because I'm making a lot of tutorials
[764.68] Lee: I need products that are easy to use reliable easy to get hold of and that also have
[772.04] Lee: Decent backup and technical support. So if I get stuck when I'm making series
[777.0] Lee: I can just ring them up and get a great answer, right?
[779.92] Lee: So so for me my requirements come from two different things
[783.6] Lee: It's not just me as a pilot for my own edification flying in field with a big goofy grin on my face for the latest model
[789.6] Lee: It's also which of the manufacturers have my back when I need them
[796.32] Lee: When I'm creating a series and I get stuck
[799.8] Lee: So so it's a slightly different view of the world
[803.12] Lee: I think than some of the other ones that I've done
[805.2] Lee: So some of the names that you would expect to be right there at the top
[809.0] Lee: Probably not. So all the ones that I don't have a strong opinion on are in the you category and also I haven't thought about this
[816.12] Lee: I haven't you know sat down with a with a brandy and a cigar and thought about this for 45 minutes
[821.68] Lee: I literally it was a knee-jerk reaction, but bubble bubble bubble bubble and they all went in there
[826.88] Lee: So for example, if we talk about, you know, poor Dominic's having heart failure because he's in D
[831.76] Lee: Dominic haven't spoke to Dominic for probably two odd years last time
[836.08] Lee: I spoke to him was when he fell down the stairs outside his house. You remember that? Yeah, I
[841.4] Lee: Haven't had any of his products
[844.12] Lee: So I honestly don't know what the state of seriously pro is. I was a big supporter in the early days
[849.44] Lee: I pushed and built a lot with a seriously pro racing f3
[854.72] Lee: One of the fastest most cloned boards in the history of the hobby
[859.52] Lee: We have a lot to thank Dominic for you know
[862.52] Lee: He's the father of clean flight without which we wouldn't have beat a flight without which wouldn't have I now
[867.68] Lee: So thank you Dominic
[869.48] Lee: We will we are literally not worthy right because without you brother and everyone kind of forgets that because he took base flight
[877.0] Lee: from
[878.52] Lee: Timecop
[879.56] Lee: Created a code that was usable enough with the other people in the project that then we could have all the stuff
[886.64] Lee: Today we wouldn't have a lot of stuff today without Dominic doing the donkey work to fix it
[892.88] Lee: So with all that said the reason is indeed is because I don't use his stuff
[896.84] Lee: So I have no strong opinion the stuff that I know about is all the stuff. Hey
[903.84] Jack: It's real
[906.44] Lee: You see that's that's worth something now
[910.2] Jack: Yeah
[912.88] Jack: Next week
[915.48] Jack: Proper logo
[918.08] Jack: 60 of the finest British pounds
[922.88] Lee: Fantastic. So so that so that's why some of the things are in weird places because it's not that they're particularly bad
[930.84] Lee: although
[932.8] Lee: with freesky in d that might be another conversation, but
[938.2] Lee: There what it's kind of almost a ranking of how comfortable I are I am and how much I like the technology
[946.0] Lee: And that's really a function of how much I use it
[949.6] Jack: and if you don't agree then
[954.16] Jack: You know go out try these products yourself, but
[959.16] Jack: You know just just just to just to show something
[965.2] Jack: You know, look look at this man. He has done the work
[970.56] Jack: You know, there's so much look at that nay32
[975.12] Jack: Understanding brushless the arm series. When's the last time you saw a pics Hawk and that transmitter? Who knows?
[983.4] Jack: but you know
[985.4] Lee: That's a DX7 that mate. That was that was that was hot stuff back into it. Yeah
[991.52] Jack: CC3d orange controllers
[994.32] Stephen: You don't have stuff with large larger aircraft as well
[997.52] Stephen: Right, a lot of us don't get a chance to play with some of the big stuff and you it looks like you're building stuff
[1003.04] Stephen: That's almost agricultural survey level equipment. I
[1007.48] Lee: Don't but I deal with make videos of people who do
[1010.56] Lee: there is a lot of interest in that and one the reasons that I do that is because
[1014.96] Lee: You tend to find that some of the new technology
[1018.0] Lee: Comes in at that very high level first because those kind of agricultural surveying mapping systems
[1024.48] Lee: Twenty thirty thousand dollars. So they're not they're not hobby grade kit, right?
[1028.56] Lee: But you tend to find that technology that's there now in three or four years time
[1034.08] Lee: There'll be a hobby grade version of it. So
[1037.84] Lee: Yeah, exactly. So it's like Formula One, right?
[1040.16] Lee: There'll be stuff to put in for in the one cars that appear in production cars ten years later
[1043.8] Stephen: And we get couldn't be quiet from the top carbon fiber, right? Carbon fiber was like billionaires toys back in the 90s and now it's
[1052.8] Lee: Everywhere, right?
[1055.28] Lee: Exactly. So so I I like to keep an eye on that stuff
[1059.12] Lee: because that there are the stuff so for example things like LiDARs and
[1063.36] Lee: Sonars, which now you can get them for 60 70 80 pounds, which still sounds like a lot
[1068.68] Lee: But you know you can get reasonable ranges now so you can do terrain following
[1073.96] Lee: It helps you with things like auto landing stuff like that
[1077.16] Lee: And it's amazing how much interest there is in that stuff because I thought it was going to be really
[1083.56] Lee: Exotic and esoteric and lots of people wouldn't be interested
[1086.72] Lee: So I make a video on it just because I happen to be up at somewhere like 3d XR
[1090.6] Lee: You know because the stuff that he has is
[1093.48] Lee: It is literally like walking into you know, it is it is seriously another level
[1099.6] Lee: And it's all stuff that you know anything sub
[1103.34] Lee: Three meter wingspan and he thinks it's toy grade right and it and it's and it's just yeah
[1110.26] Lee: It's it's not even funny
[1112.1] Lee: But you know so for it to give me an example the kind of things that happened
[1115.98] Lee: So for example, Ben up there built a lot of VTOLs VTOL is a big thing at the moment
[1121.3] Jack: But I will take off coal by the way
[1127.94] Jack: No, I didn't know I didn't know buddy sorry, that's all right
[1131.58] Jack: I just
[1140.58] Jack: I'm so used to him being the new guy and then he goes. Oh, yeah order of operations
[1146.62] Jack: And then I go who are you don't know who you are anymore?
[1151.62] Koel: You know, I can I can take in information. I promise. Yeah
[1157.1] Jack: Who made that?
[1160.1] Lee: Well, was it what was what was that was that that the was that the motor brand
[1165.94] Jack: No, that's a any brand hang on
[1169.66] Jack: Think about it. I mean it's pretty obvious. That's a scorpion strap
[1177.74] Lee: Cuz I think of scorpion as the motors or am I getting that wrong?
[1184.02] Jack: They made really strong straps, that's what I know as
[1188.18] Jack: Hmm you're probably more right than me
[1191.98] Lee: Yeah, I'm going back a very long time. They might not even do it anymore. There was anyway
[1197.18] Stephen: Tell me about some of your choice picks here. Good. We've got
[1200.5] Stephen: Top tier I think the top tier with arm a ton of run cam matek
[1204.06] Stephen: Yeah, we can see how that was gonna pan out, but there's a couple of surprising ones here
[1210.7] Lee: Well, okay, this is no this is one that we probably do need to talk about so fat shark
[1215.62] Lee: Absolutely goes in my s category
[1218.46] Lee: Even though lots of people would go but fat shark. They haven't done anything forever
[1222.94] Lee: They brought out the HDO to use and that was about it, right? So, you know fact who fat shark who?
[1238.78] Lee: So the thing with fat shark is that fat shark were bought by red cat
[1243.42] Lee: and fat shark had been part of that group and
[1246.38] Lee: they
[1248.34] Lee: sidelined
[1249.58] Lee: one of the main
[1252.98] Lee: Driving forces behind the innovation inside fat shark. So it's owned by a guy called Greg
[1258.94] Lee: You've got you guys have had him on here before today
[1261.74] Lee: I like Greg a lot Greg has a very dry sense of humor
[1265.74] Lee: He pretty much created industrialized FPV for the hobby
[1270.74] Lee: Because he wanted back in the day to add a camera on to because he was into radio control cars
[1276.38] Lee: And he wanted to feel like he was actually in the RC car. So he went down to the local bazaars
[1281.7] Lee: I think he was in Hong Kong at the time
[1284.66] Lee: and then my
[1286.7] Lee: the markets
[1288.9] Lee: And this these this is the day when everyone was Jerry rigging everything and it was all very Heath Robinson
[1294.94] Lee: And he got a camera he managed to get a couple of screens
[1298.54] Lee: he managed to lash up some goggles and a video transmitter and he made it work and if you
[1303.78] Lee: Confined his YouTube channel one of the early videos of him testing FPV
[1309.18] Lee: Analog FPV before it was analog FPV is still on his channel. You can still see it today. That's how long ago it is
[1315.42] Lee: So anyway, so he has continued to be so he's a technologist, right? He loves technology
[1321.18] Lee: He loves buggering around the stuff. He loves playing with stuff and coming up with new ideas
[1326.86] Lee: There's a lot of people who will throw shade in fact sharks direction because no set of goggles is going to be perfect for everybody
[1333.9] Lee: but there is a reason why historically in analog land when everyone brought out a new pair of goggles that the thumbnail was
[1341.14] Lee: fetch our killer
[1342.42] Lee: Because that shark were the ones to be right because they had a big target on their back and they were they were the
[1348.26] Lee: Standard by which everyone was measured love them or hate them
[1352.18] Lee: when red cat took them over
[1354.46] Lee: and
[1355.78] Lee: Greg
[1357.02] Lee: Was pretty much sidelined and had very little to do with the company
[1363.06] Lee: And I think that was very difficult for I don't want to give too much away here because some of the conversations I'm kind of
[1370.69] Lee: You know
[1371.31] Stephen: We got that very awkward video
[1373.15] Stephen: When walk snail was released right where he was interviewed and seemed to be surprised by the product
[1380.13] Stephen: Like he he'd never seen it either and he was supposed to be demoing it to everyone else
[1384.53] Stephen: So it did feel a very odd launch
[1387.93] Lee: Okay, so let me give you a little bit of a background behind that yes, it was a very odd launch the thing is
[1393.65] Lee: The person I'm not gonna go the full detail
[1396.29] Lee: So you don't have to you know, the more legal disclaimers
[1398.73] Lee: But this the story that I heard bearing in mind that what wrote a riot at the time was part of the same
[1405.21] Lee: Red cat family as fat shark
[1407.45] Lee: It was incredibly incestuous thing to get wrote a riot to be the exclusive exclusive exclusive
[1414.77] Lee: First look right HD system from fat shark because they didn't tell you that that was the case
[1420.73] Lee: they then promoted this system that was
[1424.69] Lee: Probably two months away from being in a situation where it would actually work
[1428.13] Lee: there was still quite a number of bugs that they were talking about and
[1431.69] Lee: Mr. Bardwell, who is a known fat shark hater
[1435.93] Lee: He was the one that played
[1437.61] Lee: Curb your enthusiasm music over a one of the fat shark goggles
[1441.65] Lee: He just like sat there with in his hand and played the music as a video
[1445.33] Lee: Had that had to then sit with the person that he'd taken a big whiz on over the past five years and do an interview
[1452.25] Lee: all upbeat and not only did he have to do that, but Greg who
[1457.89] Lee: May or may not like that individual then had to play the game and at the time
[1463.33] Lee: And at the time as I understand it Greg actually didn't have a set of the fat shark goggles to try
[1470.13] Lee: He hadn't actually tried the technology
[1471.97] Lee: He it felt to me like he got wheeled out as a as the face of fat shark
[1476.93] Lee: With very little information as a marketing stunt and plunked in stunt in front of somebody
[1482.09] Lee: He was a known fat shark hater and said off you go. So hang on. Hang on. Let's just rewind a bit
[1487.97] Stephen: So fat shark is the company that's putting their name on the goggles
[1491.47] Stephen: They were doing distribution in the US and they had a say in the development of the product
[1497.11] Stephen: How is it that?
[1498.79] Stephen: Roto riot gets the goggles to do a media spotlight on them the same thing the owner of the company
[1506.59] Stephen: sees those goggles
[1509.99] Lee: He was he he wasn't actively involved in the development fat shark actually developed the goggles
[1516.07] Lee: They are they use exactly the same optics as the HDO to goggles
[1521.11] Stephen: But he wasn't actively involved in the development. The company was developing no other products though
[1525.63] Stephen: They the last goal they'd released was like three years before that was the HDO twos exactly
[1530.55] Lee: Yeah, so so he wasn't directly involved, which is why I'm saying so one of the key driving
[1537.99] Lee: Don't want to get too far into this
[1540.75] Stephen: I'm surprised because three three years they released their last HDO to or whatever then for three years
[1546.95] Stephen: They're thinking about digital systems. They experiment with bite frost. They kick out something decide not to go that route with the scouts and then
[1556.23] Stephen: fall onto the walks now sort of train and
[1559.67] Stephen: And you're saying that it's a big enough company that the owner of the company is just unaware of the goggles that are being
[1566.95] Lee: Not unaware I didn't say unaware
[1569.95] Lee: But didn't have a set that he tried they didn't send him a set to have a go with
[1575.35] Lee: Okay, right. So so he is that he is the tech the technologist
[1579.99] Lee: Hadn't been involved. There's a there's a great there's a great story about Greg when back in the day when they were producing goggles
[1587.05] Lee: quite regularly
[1588.31] Lee: One of the big things that used to be a big bone of contention was field of view
[1593.19] Lee: And feel because we all have our own particular fields of view
[1597.51] Lee: That we feel comfortable with and I think it depends on the kind of flying you're doing the model the camera
[1603.63] Lee: Right, but also whether or not you're flying for three or sixty nine how the panel works
[1610.59] Lee: But for me, I like a slightly smaller field of view because I use the on-screen display because I'm flying planes
[1618.71] Lee: And more endurance style flying. So I'm monitoring lots of things like speed altitude number of GPS is current pull
[1627.71] Lee: Estimated time remaining I have all that stuff. So for me
[1630.79] Lee: I don't want a really immersive massive screen because then what I have to do is to check those details
[1635.67] Lee: I have to move my eyes away from the center of the screen
[1639.27] Lee: So other people so, you know people like Josh
[1642.35] Lee: Bardwell like a really big field of view and when the field of view wasn't massive that was one of the criticisms
[1648.63] Lee: So Greg thought okay
[1650.11] Lee: Well, I'm gonna make a bloody big field of view like a 60 degree or whatever it was
[1654.15] Lee: He was punching force field of view so they spent
[1658.43] Lee: Because the optics are some of the most expensive part the goggles making them so you can actually see these little tiny swell inch
[1665.71] Lee: Size screens and make them look like you know, there are 40 because they're about one inch diagonal, aren't they the panels?
[1671.75] Lee: Really small so to make them crystal clear right edge to edge and make it so that there isn't like a little pin
[1678.35] Lee: Prick in the middle of the lens is that you have to have your eyes perfectly in that, you know
[1682.43] Lee: Yeah, it's it's not easy. Make sure you don't get vignetting around the outside
[1686.63] Stephen: So that's the other thing that people boasting a massive fields of view
[1689.35] Stephen: But the the edges are blurry and you can't really use the chromatic aberrations and stuff. That's all that
[1695.51] Lee: Yeah, that's the other one where in the corners you get almost like a rainbow effect as the light is bent different RGB pixels
[1703.07] Koel: Are actually splitting up in the corners? Yeah, I'm actually just gonna chime in really quick and blow Jack's mind
[1708.43] Koel: So so Jack just we're speaking about Greg French from fat shark, right? That's what we're talking about
[1716.51] Koel: I don't know. Great pain. Like really
[1720.55] Koel: Sorry, we're talking about Greg of fat shark, right? Yes. Yeah
[1726.19] Koel: In fact Jack he actually went and took an engineering degree in London, Ontario at Western by the way Jack back in the 90s
[1734.67] Jack: So how do you know this? Who are you?
[1739.55] Jack: Hang on, let me just just jeez I can't
[1745.07] Koel: I'm from Canada. I grew up in a city called London, Ontario, but yeah Greg of fat shark
[1750.27] Koel: Yeah, he actually went to school in my hometown, which is really random
[1754.27] Koel: Sorry to interject there and cut off the momentum, but
[1759.51] Lee: I think that you've just blown Jack's mind the fact that you're just dropping all this knowledge, you know
[1766.11] Lee: You've been hiding your light under a bushel. So to finish the story very quickly
[1769.71] Lee: So yeah trying to do 60 degree field of view they the optics are the one the most expensive parts
[1775.43] Lee: There's multiple it's like building a two-minute your telescopes, right?
[1779.87] Lee: And there are several different lenses and things
[1781.95] Lee: So they went through the process and they eventually managed to get a set of optics that would work and give a 60 degree field
[1788.27] Lee: of view
[1790.19] Lee: But he didn't like them. However at that point they'd spent about hundred and seventy thousand dollars
[1796.79] Lee: developing these arrays of optics
[1799.91] Lee: But they tried it and and that he wasn't happy for all the reasons that we've discussed as you as you get bigger and bigger
[1807.15] Lee: The problems get exponentially harder to maintain the integrity and the focus
[1814.31] Lee: So he put them in a bin, right?
[1816.63] Lee: And it was like, okay
[1817.63] Lee: And this is all the stuff that goes on with people like these vendors at the top of my list that I know about
[1822.83] Lee: Because they tell me these stories, but they are in the public domain. So they went in a bin and then he had
[1829.39] Lee: What do you call those guys that come in from University? You don't they don't get paid
[1833.39] Lee: But they're like an intern intern. Yes. Thank you. Thank you
[1836.75] Lee: So he had an intern coming in and the intern was doing
[1840.71] Lee: Checking of PCBs some of the pre-prod PCBs and there was he was
[1845.67] Lee: Attached with checking the soldering all was all okay
[1849.59] Lee: So he was trying to do with one of those standards, you know, like the the big magnifying glasses with the light around the edge
[1855.07] Lee: You know that you see in in, you know CSI
[1857.99] Lee: And it wouldn't give him the magnet magnification and he found one of these lens arrays
[1863.75] Lee: And started using it because it turns out it was perfect
[1867.75] Lee: to
[1868.75] Lee: Check that the soldering on this on this board is right
[1872.07] Lee: So Greg walked in and clocked him with that and it was like what you're doing is not I've just found this
[1877.35] Lee: It's actually really good. I can see exactly what I'm doing. It's like, okay
[1880.35] Lee: That's probably the most expensive magnifying glass on the planet
[1884.31] Lee: So, you know, it was a hundred seventy, but but it's kind of those kind of things that that make me feel happy
[1888.93] Lee: However, the red cat thing so they fat shark at the moment is currently in the middle of being sold
[1894.77] Lee: I don't know if and you probably aware of this
[1897.57] Stephen: Yeah
[1898.09] Stephen: So they transitioned to from being owned by red cat to being owned by one of the guys that runs red cat
[1903.93] Stephen: So they're kind of off the the red cat holdings label, but they're still technically owned by the same guy
[1910.53] Lee: But they are currently being sold. There's there's it's currently underway at the moment, right?
[1916.93] Lee: As part of that Greg is going to be able to get back to what he loves doing and to be frank
[1922.89] Lee: he is bloody good at doing which is making goggles and
[1926.93] Lee: Working on stuff and being the guy in the back room
[1930.25] Lee: Coming up with wacky ideas and trying stuff out and trying to make new products
[1934.25] Lee: It's the fact that he hasn't been in that position for the last three odd years is the reason why we haven't had any more goggles
[1940.69] Lee: Because I don't know what red cat were doing with fat shark
[1943.21] Lee: And I don't know whether their idea was that it would they were going to try and create some kind of military
[1947.69] Lee: Application with FPV and it never happened. So now they don't care. They're going to sell them
[1951.77] Stephen: That's what red cat are going right?
[1953.45] Stephen: They've made a couple of announcements with teal recently that they're following government and military friend or foe designation systems
[1961.81] Lee: There was a press article about that. Yeah, and the more I read about those guys the more
[1967.33] Lee: Suspicious I am about what the motors were for buying some of these radio control companies
[1974.01] Lee: But if we can get back to the point where I can speak to Greg and Greg has a goofy grin on his face
[1980.61] Lee: And as I'm talking to him on Skype
[1982.25] Lee: I can see the whiff of solder as he's talking to me is building stuff
[1986.89] Lee: That is going to be a good thing for the hobby because at the moment the walks nail has become a success
[1993.57] Lee: Because at the moment there are three businesses involved in the walk snail ecosystem. There's cadets
[1998.29] Lee: There's walk snail and the fat shark
[2001.53] Lee: Fat shark at the moment has been on the bench, right?
[2005.41] Lee: Chewing gum looking at their sneakers twiddling the bat in the in the sound right whereas everyone else has been on the field playing
[2011.93] Lee: They've managed to create a success out of walks now with fat shark basically doing zero promotion zero marketing
[2018.97] Lee: They create the goggles and then they've been sidelined
[2022.33] Lee: So I'm excited for when fat shark come back in and actually get involved again and start spending money on the marketing and investing
[2029.57] Lee: In the technology because let's face it. We all want a set of
[2032.53] Lee: Walk snails that have an AV input and lots of other things
[2036.25] Lee: but if you
[2037.73] Lee: The things with a walk snail system like for example, they have the Scout HDs
[2042.41] Lee: Which most people don't even realize are a thing. It's 279 pounds set of goggles based on the Scout
[2049.45] Lee: They are and actually I love the Scouts
[2052.41] Lee: There were some of the best goggles that fat shark have ever made or the exception each year originally an HD zero system
[2057.93] Stephen: Weren't they they were kind of?
[2059.65] Stephen: Tested as an alpha HD zero system
[2062.81] Lee: They they were but the the ones that my friends have now one of my friends is using hello to Adam
[2068.73] Lee: Who's if he's watching this is he has my scouts because I took over he was watching some FPV goggles
[2076.21] Lee: He's the ones he was using blew up
[2078.93] Lee: literally
[2080.21] Lee: And I and I went over there because you know, I'm fortunate I get sent a lot of review stuff
[2084.41] Lee: So I have a whole so I went over there with a boot full of goggles
[2087.57] Lee: And we had a we had a fun hour with several cups of coffee
[2090.61] Lee: And he literally tried every goggle and after trying every single goggle he picked the Scout
[2095.25] Lee: So so the actual screen and the way it was it's kind of like a squash box goggle for those who haven't seen it
[2101.53] Stephen: Does it feel similar to the original DJI goggles?
[2105.45] Lee: Um
[2107.45] Lee: Yes, but it's not binocular it's monocular so it's one big screen you're looking at okay, so which also means that for some people with
[2117.25] Lee: Visual defects see me to some things like that it can actually work better
[2121.33] Lee: so so but so the thing is you've got those things as well, but if fat shark was firing on all cylinders
[2128.21] Lee: We these things will be being screamed about because with their own center reviews, you know
[2133.73] Lee: I I'm excited about what fact shock potentially could be not only because what they've done historically because without them
[2140.73] Lee: We wouldn't be where we are today because you know, everyone was trying to
[2145.41] Lee: You know somebody made a joke about orca goggles being called that because you know orcas kill sharks, but
[2152.13] Lee: But but that you know, there's a there's there's a reason why there were always the comparison
[2156.77] Lee: So that's why they're there because historically they've been great for the hobby but going forward if they
[2163.81] Lee: Get back to what they were doing
[2165.81] Lee: Then hopefully that will give everyone a kick up the ass and we'll start to get more innovation again with the fpv side
[2172.61] Lee: And also it will be good for the walks in the liquor system because then the third part of that
[2178.05] Lee: Trilogy of companies behind the system. They'll all be operating
[2182.37] Frank: This episode was recorded in front of a live online audience downloaded and edited to make sense when it played audio only
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[2206.05] Frank: Let's drone out
[2207.73] Jack: Do you remember lee do you remember when hobby king?
[2211.81] Jack: So we're going from top to bottom here. You put them at e do you remember when they were showing the fat shark?
[2219.01] Jack: um
[2220.37] Jack: uh manufacturing line on their
[2223.49] Jack: uh
[2224.45] Jack: In the factory and the guy from hobby king through a new pair that had just been tested on the floor
[2233.17] Jack: Just because you know goggles were expensive back then and he was being a baller
[2238.13] Jack: and
[2239.09] Jack: We all just lost our
[2241.89] Jack: Because the poor chinese guy was like, oh my god
[2244.53] Jack: I've gone, you know, he thought he was going to be like, you know
[2247.73] Jack: Freaking out her back and shot
[2250.37] Jack: You know, like it was yeah, you really got like this sort of like foxconn vibe
[2256.53] Jack: Um, hang on. Where's the where's the banner?
[2259.01] Jack: Um, you know foxconn may or may not be completely evil
[2262.85] Jack: but uh
[2264.05] Jack: You know like oh my word
[2267.33] Jack: So I mean come off it lee you must have plenty of hobby king battery turnergies. Why are they e?
[2274.93] Lee: uh
[2276.05] Lee: Because hobby king, uh have lost the plot completely
[2281.01] Lee: They used to be great for batteries. They used to be here in the uk
[2284.13] Lee: So we could actually ship batteries without it costing 35 pounds
[2287.97] Lee: Um, they also used to innovate and bring out some nice models. So they used to have some great stuff
[2293.09] Lee: They never got into the quad part of the business really
[2296.13] Lee: Right. So they were really most of us use them for things like batteries and consumables, but they had things like bixlers
[2302.93] Lee: Remember the whole art the whole thing about with joss bixler and hobby king and all that stuff, you know, that's a whole another
[2309.25] Lee: story
[2310.21] Lee: um, but
[2312.13] Lee: Now they're not really innovating. They're not bringing out any new models
[2315.97] Lee: The models that they do bring out are typically repainted versions of older models
[2321.89] Lee: Yeah
[2323.33] Lee: It's just oh, come on
[2326.85] Stephen: Do you think there's a problem with the lack of market growth that stopping companies from really pushing and they're just
[2331.81] Stephen: Sitting and milking it to get what cash there is out of it
[2337.01] Lee: No, I think what actually happened reading between the lines is I think the owner of hobby king
[2341.49] Lee: uh
[2342.37] Lee: When he set the business up and it's and it initially took off like a train
[2346.45] Lee: Kind of did a dotted line of that exponential growth and thought he was going to be a billionaire by christmas like the um
[2353.73] Lee: Rodney what they called the the trotters, right?
[2356.93] Lee: um, but the the market slowed down and and then he
[2362.21] Lee: From what I understand he went and invested in lots of other stuff and pulled money out of the hobby king engine
[2367.49] Lee: Because the problem is is although when we see a product being released
[2370.93] Lee: There's probably 18 months to two years before that starting from the initial concept to development to initial modes
[2378.53] Lee: Molds testing to flying to refining to packaging
[2383.01] Lee: Making the money if there's a whole thing, right? So when you cut the legs off
[2388.29] Lee: Then you have those things that are currently in production and i've actually had some planes from hobby king
[2395.17] Lee: that
[2396.53] Lee: Were left in limbo when the money was left and they kind of sent me stuff and gone
[2401.89] Lee: What do you think and i've given a 20-point list of things that they need to do that wouldn't require them changing the mold
[2409.89] Lee: And another 20-point list of things that they should really do which would require them to change the mold because the mold is
[2416.19] Lee: Incredibly expensive for the injection for the thing
[2419.25] Lee: Um, so if you haven't got the money for the molds, you know what you can't have any new product
[2423.25] Lee: The wet they don't wear house stuff. The shipping now is extortionately expensive
[2428.45] Lee: If i'm going to ship a battery from the eu
[2431.25] Lee: I'm going to get it from jen's ace and get one of their batteries because they're far superior to the hobby king things
[2437.17] Lee: The great thing about hobby king was that you know
[2439.33] Lee: You could order battery on wednesday and you could have it on your charger by friday ready for the weekend flight
[2445.81] Stephen: Yeah, but you had to check like is it available in the uk warehouse?
[2449.25] Stephen: Is it available in the eu warehouse is it available in the global warehouse?
[2453.41] Stephen: And the website was shocking. So you ended up with an order where like two things were from uk
[2459.33] Stephen: Three things were from the eu and two things were from global and you like you paid a ludicrous amount of shipping
[2465.17] Stephen: Yeah, do then go back through your carts and be like no. No. No, not that just try and get it all from one warehouse
[2471.09] Lee: Yeah, and also, you know, they they lost the plot a little bit because they started doing hornby trains
[2477.41] Lee: And started doing frisbees and you know, uh frisbee gulls
[2482.61] Lee: All kind because they because then yeah, because it was hobby king so all hobbies
[2488.13] Lee: So they they just completely screwed it
[2491.41] Lee: And got completely if they just stayed true to what was making them the money that we all loved them for
[2497.01] Lee: because the way
[2498.37] Lee: Sorry to get all kind of business manager about it
[2501.33] Lee: But the way you tend to work it there are a lot called cash cash cows in a business, right?
[2506.05] Lee: You find that 80 percent of the margin and profit comes from 20 percent of the skews
[2510.77] Lee: And for those who always wonder what skews are they're stock keeping units. That's what it stands for skew stock keeping unit
[2518.29] Lee: It's an it's a it's a way to track right?
[2520.93] Lee: So so what you do is in a business you protect those twin that 20 percent of your skews
[2527.17] Lee: That make you the vast majority of your money
[2529.97] Lee: As though your life depends on it
[2531.33] Lee: They're called cash cows, right and you do not shag with those because that is what keeps the lights on it pays the money
[2537.73] Lee: It goes it just carry on selling them
[2540.37] Lee: You just you just make sure you have exactly your forecast you have enough
[2544.77] Lee: And they complete and they let all the all their cash cows
[2548.85] Lee: Just fall over and rot in the field and surprise price the cash flow stop the investment stock from the owner
[2554.77] Lee: And they were just dead in the water. So now
[2557.57] Lee: You know
[2558.85] Lee: We do need a couple more guys in the uk to step up. I love hobby kit hobby rc
[2563.97] Lee: I love quad copters.co.uk. I love 3d xr. There's there's a number in the uk that we all use here
[2569.89] Lee: Sorry for the man tech as well. Yeah
[2574.45] Lee: We use those
[2575.89] Lee: but the but the thing is
[2577.73] Lee: not
[2578.77] Lee: A lot of them still don't carry
[2581.09] Lee: A lot of the basic consumables in sufficient quantity that you can always get it when you need it
[2586.61] Lee: So for example, sorry
[2588.61] Lee: Yeah
[2589.65] Lee: greg
[2593.33] Lee: Rc volt so so but the thing is, you know, I I had i've just done a conversion of a plane at one of my little
[2600.85] Lee: instead of which he darts into walks now and I haven't flown it for a year because
[2606.21] Lee: I've been flying mostly hd systems, right?
[2609.33] Lee: so I put walk sail in it and I took it for a flight and the battery I used in it was
[2613.41] Lee: You know when when it's kind of it's a little bit squidgy and you're like it's on its way out
[2617.97] Lee: But I risked it for a biscuit and it and it just it as soon as I launched it
[2622.53] Lee: The radio just freaked out and just went battery critical battery
[2625.81] Lee: Because because one of the cells was on high and it was just you know what i'm landing it
[2629.65] Lee: So I thought that's fine. I just need to get exactly the same hobby king
[2633.81] Stephen: 1300 3s needs to be this long and this wide and this thick exactly
[2639.25] Lee: And exactly this weight because that's what all the cg is all built for on the model
[2644.93] Lee: And I ended up having to buy one for five quid more from a guy on ebay and it's actually the right battery
[2650.61] Lee: So god knows how he's got it
[2652.61] Lee: But you know what it in the old days you just go well, actually i'll buy two
[2656.61] Lee: Because i'm paying for the postage
[2658.45] Jack: And I know who that person is by the way
[2661.65] Lee: Do you can you thank them because that's it's meant that I don't have to completely
[2665.81] Jack: Redo the cg on the whole thing. It's you know martin the the ginger guy beauty and the geek
[2671.89] Jack: Guy it's him. He bought all the batteries as they liquidated
[2678.13] Jack: Well, he's got a stockpile of them
[2680.37] Jack: He's got a danger garage
[2682.53] Jack: Yeah
[2683.89] Jack: Just so you know, sorry for cutting you off there
[2687.33] Lee: No, well, no, it's probably him that I bought it from but it was like
[2691.01] Lee: On the hobby king website. It would have been like 12 13 quid
[2694.61] Lee: But it was like 1999 from him and you know
[2697.17] Lee: What i'm quite happy to pay that because it it just means that I can continue to fly that model
[2702.85] Lee: And and the weird the annoying thing is is the new battery is actually 10 grams heavier than the old ones that i've had for
[2707.89] Lee: three or four years, so
[2710.53] Lee: It still didn't work out exactly as what it did. But in the old days
[2713.73] Lee: Hobby king would have been an A or an A or a B
[2716.37] Lee: Because we all use them for those consumables and we can
[2720.45] Stephen: What do you write their sibling stores because we used to have a lot of traffic, uh going to gear best
[2725.81] Stephen: banggood is
[2727.33] Stephen: Pretty much not doing hobby stuff now. There's never any stock in so
[2731.81] Stephen: Do you think they're all kind of in that same position?
[2735.01] Stephen: I remember looking at gearbest. For example, there were house brands like
[2738.37] Stephen: Furaby there used to be loads of furaby quads out there
[2742.05] Stephen: Andy rc was reviewing tons of them and the entire house brand vanished when gearbest stopped communicating with youtubers
[2750.69] Lee: I i'm still talking to gearbest. The problem is is that all of those chinese
[2755.39] Lee: warehouses that used to be a mainstay for pumping product into
[2759.89] Lee: um the content creating community for radio control
[2763.57] Lee: have
[2765.01] Lee: all really struggled to because radio control is a little bit of a
[2769.89] Lee: A bit of a wacky things. It's not massive volume. It's nice. And it's quite that's a wonderful way to put it
[2775.81] Lee: Thank you. Stephen. That's a much
[2778.29] Lee: better way to say it's niche whereas
[2781.33] Lee: um, and also historically when they were all being supported by china for the international shipping
[2788.45] Lee: It you know, it kind of made sense for us to do it. But now, you know, if you try and buy
[2794.21] Lee: um a phone plane
[2797.41] Lee: from
[2798.69] Lee: Assuming you could get it from gearbest aliexpress. In fact aliexpress seems to be one one of the few that still do it
[2803.81] Lee: Does a lot of stuff. Yeah, that's right. My my only plane. Yeah, or banggood. The shipping
[2809.97] Lee: is now
[2811.39] Lee: astronomically expensive and
[2813.73] Lee: without
[2815.09] Lee: Actually, no, probably there was two instances where I got stuff in from banggood
[2818.61] Lee: That was a big box where it didn't look like somebody had just sat on it while they had the sandwiches
[2824.05] Lee: During the part of the transit. So you always unpacked it
[2828.37] Lee: Waiting to find a bit of foam that was there was always a bit of foam that had a dent
[2832.29] Lee: Or a mark in it from a servo horn from the piece above that pump pushed through the thing get the kettle on
[2839.81] Lee: Oh, yeah, you'd have a bit of a cry. So I so I think and I don't think necessarily
[2844.53] Lee: Those guys not being as heavily involved in rc is necessarily a bad thing
[2848.37] Lee: I got an awful lot of stories every time we did something with banggood of people going
[2853.41] Lee: I've paid but haven't got my product or the product arrived and it's broken
[2856.85] Stephen: I can't get so first time I ordered anything. I ordered a quad and a radio
[2861.49] Stephen: I was going to get fly sky i6 and a little two inch bind and fly and it just never turned up
[2869.25] Stephen: The tack tracking said it had been delivered and it never turned up and that was my first experience with the hobby
[2877.01] Stephen: Not great that was banggood
[2879.09] Lee: My my my first ever order from international actually going back was was hobby king
[2884.53] Lee: Um, because in those days I used to sit and watch
[2887.73] Lee: the two joshies on
[2890.45] Lee: What were they called?
[2891.89] Lee: Flight tests. Thank you jack
[2894.37] Lee: I used to sit there and they'd be doing all this stuff
[2897.33] Lee: And a lot of a lot of things abusing with hobby with hobby king pieces and I bought my first ever set of fat sharks
[2903.89] Lee: From hobby king and they got shipped from china and it was I think they cost about 214 pounds
[2910.77] Lee: Amazingly, I still remember the number and I basically
[2914.29] Lee: was
[2915.65] Lee: a little bit, um, you know, my my my backside was going like that
[2920.29] Lee: For the whole two and a half weeks until they turned up because I honestly thought there's a 50 50 chance
[2925.41] Lee: These aren't going to even appear and I was so glad when they did
[2930.13] Lee: because that that was kind of the reality of it, you know that you sometimes got it you sometimes didn't and then you had the argument of
[2937.25] Lee: You know, did it arrive? Did it not are you trying to scam them? Can they be asked even answering you?
[2943.41] Lee: I I do like ordering from uk shops
[2946.93] Lee: Where it arrives two days later and this is where hobby king cocked up
[2951.09] Lee: They closed that uk warehouse and that was that for me was the end
[2955.57] Stephen: I know you look at the prices the stuff on banggoods five ten pounds more expensive than the uk resellers
[2961.49] Stephen: So where is the incentive gone? They're not supported by the chinese government anymore. Just no point
[2966.93] Stephen: No, I haven't expressed a bunch aliexpress seems to work. But again buying that plane
[2973.01] Stephen: I canceled three orders because there were like 20 people selling the same plane
[2977.81] Stephen: And so every time I did a slightly different search i'd find it for five pounds cheaper
[2982.93] Stephen: And so I ended up
[2984.29] Stephen: Yeah, like ordering it three times and I was paying 150 quid
[2988.45] Stephen: To start with and I think I ended up getting it for 110
[2991.41] Stephen: But it's just like completely chaotic marketplace. It's worse than going on ebay
[2996.05] Lee: Yeah, it it it is almost like um radio control roulette
[3000.61] Lee: You know, you raise your money. It takes your choice
[3003.41] Jack: We have literally got 10 minutes left
[3005.65] Lee: But we've got three of them
[3009.65] Jack: We've done three of them as usual with lee. Oh, man
[3013.41] Jack: lee
[3015.09] Stephen: All right, lee kiss ultra kiss ultra. Why is it an a what when was the last time you flew kiss ultra? He hasn't he hasn't got one
[3022.69] Lee: It's not like sorry a little bit at the top
[3024.77] Lee: um
[3025.81] Lee: I haven't flown the frages, but I really like the guys behind kiss
[3029.57] Lee: Um kiss ultra probably I I kiss normal. I put them on the same thing
[3034.93] Lee: Um, I kiss ultra. I haven't used them for ages, but I love the kiss flight controllers
[3039.41] Lee: I love the guys behind it kiss flight controllers the first one I ever used and put in a quad
[3044.77] Lee: This is back in the days. I mean we're going back a very long time now, right?
[3047.57] Lee: But it used to be that the quad would land on the ground and bounce and that wasn't because we had air mode on
[3052.93] Lee: This was before air mode was even a thing, right?
[3056.93] Lee: I love baby
[3058.05] Lee: Well, it was so bad when you're landing it would just kind of bounce and eventually you just had to try and and this
[3063.09] Lee: Was when you disarm the sticks. Anyway, you put that I put a kiss
[3068.45] Stephen: After you hit the ground. I just I just get near to the ground and disarm just like
[3073.41] Lee: Back in the day, but we had to disarm the sticks
[3077.09] Lee: so, um, so
[3079.49] Lee: I put a kiss flight controller in a model. I still remember it now. It was a speed x 250 frame or something like that
[3086.21] Lee: That was it
[3087.49] Lee: That was it. That's disarm
[3089.09] Lee: Yeah, and the other way's arm. That's right. Jack. You see you're old school. You remember this
[3095.81] Stephen: Don't remember this do a trippy spin you just disarm
[3099.65] Lee: Um, yeah, so so the so the whole thing with the kit is that I put the flight controller in the model
[3105.49] Lee: Um, I took it
[3107.09] Lee: Into the field and landed it and for the first time it landed hit the ground and stopped beautifully
[3113.81] Lee: And it was a kk 2.0
[3116.85] Lee: All right
[3118.85] Lee: How come you've got all this classic stuff on your bench jack if this is just in classic
[3124.61] Jack: Kyle sent it to people because we've been banging on for so long
[3128.93] Lee: Look at that radio swag radio c battery strap. Didn't you get used to get those free in some orders?
[3135.17] Jack: Oh, mate. Did you have to pay for them?
[3138.13] Jack: No, you're getting free
[3140.93] Jack: Look at that
[3141.97] Jack: I train bloody rotors
[3145.49] Stephen: motors
[3147.49] Stephen: Thought you're a red bottom for life. That's all you fly right d4r2, baby
[3153.01] Stephen: This one
[3154.61] Jack: This is the size of that it's bigger than the flight controller. Yeah, cole you're gonna love it. Look cppm
[3161.49] Jack: maybe
[3163.17] Jack: It's gonna be like right
[3166.37] Jack: You're gonna start you're gonna want to put controls in right you go
[3170.53] Jack: Oh a bit of yaw and it will be like putting the transmitter down getting a postcard writing it
[3177.09] Jack: Taking a stamp on it and with the address to my quad. That's what it's gonna feel like
[3182.85] Jack: Wow
[3184.61] Koel: So I bypassed all the all the goodness
[3188.69] Lee: Well, I i'm not sure i'd use the word goodness
[3193.25] Lee: There was there was a very bumpy road
[3197.09] Lee: To get where we are today, and I think I think we sometimes forget
[3201.01] Lee: how tough
[3202.53] Lee: It was in the early days and how how when if you plugged it in and it didn't burst into flames
[3208.61] Lee: You know it would you know, it was a cause for celebration
[3211.89] Lee: You know these days we have it so we we are all in one board
[3214.93] Lee: We have white flashing and flight controllers that just works case in point jack is the only person i've personally seen who
[3222.13] Stephen: who arms the quad with their foot on it because
[3226.85] Stephen: He's seen it go wrong. He's seen it go quite literally sideways
[3230.69] Jack: Yeah, we we had an intern
[3233.57] Jack: Um, I won't mention his name
[3236.45] Jack: but
[3237.57] Jack: He wired up
[3239.33] Jack: The motor output wrong on a kiss quad and I went to test it
[3244.45] Jack: And it it flew past my head
[3247.81] Jack: right
[3249.09] Jack: And it left little tiny
[3252.13] Jack: Scratch marks along the side of my face
[3257.09] Jack: Kiss v1
[3258.69] Jack: and then almost
[3261.09] Jack: Almost hit the window the single pane window of radio c
[3266.05] Jack: But it didn't it it hit luckily it hit the filing cabinet
[3271.17] Jack: And the dent on the filing cabinet was unreal
[3274.61] Jack: but yeah like
[3277.09] Lee: All of the thing is jack you can say, you know, that was the intern doing something wrong, but we all absolutely
[3283.01] Jack: Should have checked it. I should have checked it
[3285.25] Lee: Absolutely did that at least one and we only ever did it once and then we were like, oh crap
[3289.17] Lee: I'm never doing that again because you were just lucky you still had all your fingers
[3292.85] Jack: Yeah, but
[3294.53] Jack: Fed her off. He's done a motor wizard. You need to see kiss ultra
[3300.37] Jack: It's oh you can tell it which way it's spinning. What way you want it to spin
[3305.09] Jack: I was playing with it last night. It's amazing
[3309.33] Jack: So yeah, there is
[3312.69] Jack: Let me let me uh, let me just show you
[3317.97] Jack: the the wonderful world
[3320.69] Jack: um
[3321.97] Jack: Alex I hope I hope you won't shout at me for using the uh
[3327.09] Jack: hopefully
[3328.37] Jack: it won't
[3332.99] Jack: Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't display the uh dev one
[3337.31] Jack: cool
[3338.35] Jack: Connect. Look at that. Wizard
[3342.27] Jack: Wizard. Thank you
[3344.27] Stephen: 1995 calls. They want their gooey back
[3347.31] Jack: Sure. Sure. Stop talking
[3349.79] Jack: Beat your flight
[3352.35] Jack: Look he's updated the model. There's look osd. You can go into it
[3359.23] Jack: Look at that and you can just scroll around hit the enter button
[3368.03] Jack: I love you
[3371.23] Lee: I think those of us that have had experiences with kiss all have a little
[3376.35] Lee: You know fond memory, you know, it is
[3379.07] Lee: It's it's a great system and I think you know, I think you're right steven that that osd
[3383.55] Lee: uh does
[3384.83] Lee: Doesn't feel very modern but I think if you know, I was i've always been impressed with kiss stuff
[3390.11] Lee: I think it flies incredibly well and there was so much effort to get
[3394.51] Lee: Kiss feel into beta flight at one point there was lots of you know
[3399.13] Lee: Workarounds and extra stuff because everyone just dropped when they flew a kiss quad thought it was great
[3405.23] Lee: And they were doing that when the beta flight stuff was
[3408.99] Lee: still
[3410.51] Lee: embryonic and a little bit ropey
[3413.39] Koel: Hmm well with the gui, I mean they don't they say if it ain't broke don't fix it, right? So
[3419.31] Lee: Yeah, I like the way that dominic's just saying it love that beta flight still uses the 3d models that are from clean flight
[3425.15] Lee: So does inav brother that interface that you pioneered back in the day?
[3429.47] Lee: They're all still using it if you don't have I think inav might have changed it recently
[3433.63] Lee: But it used to be when you hadn't chosen your mixer and you had just that standard box with the different colored sides
[3438.59] Lee: It still had the clean flight logo on it. That's
[3442.27] Lee: Showing showing how much of that dna from
[3447.79] Jack: That block I tell you what though dom's dom's wing logo
[3454.19] Jack: With the that he's I like so good
[3457.79] Jack: so good
[3459.47] Jack: Are we allowed to talk about you let you let slip about the arrowhead?
[3464.99] Jack: fc
[3467.55] Jack: Are we allowed to talk about that
[3470.03] Lee: Well all this was a story
[3472.43] Lee: Um back in the early days when dominic and I used to do a lot together back with a seriously pro racing
[3477.95] Lee: thing
[3478.91] Lee: And dominic if you are listening we love to reconnect and start doing stuff again
[3484.03] Lee: You know you've got my data
[3485.71] Lee: You've got my details
[3487.79] Lee: but the um
[3489.63] Lee: It was becoming clear when inav was starting to be about 1.3 1.4 when I started doing it because back in the early days
[3498.51] Lee: I'd speak to dominic
[3499.87] Lee: um because
[3501.07] Lee: The way it works is that dominic had a project called clean flight and that was forked and that's not a rude word
[3505.79] Lee: It's actually what happens
[3507.15] Lee: It kind of a copy of the program went across to a guy called boris b and he developed this thing called beta flight apologies
[3512.83] Lee: for those who know this already but for those people like
[3516.03] Lee: Cole maybe you don't and then that went off and it and it was all about developing
[3521.55] Lee: The tuning for quad racing because this was before quad racing was either a thing and it was all about
[3526.51] Lee: Increasing the responsiveness of the quad and getting it feeling more locked in and that was what beta flight was all about
[3532.51] Lee: And then a guy called constant team charlem of
[3535.87] Lee: Who who sounds like a mobster from from a movie constant team is fab guy
[3541.47] Lee: He forked clean flight as well into another project
[3545.31] Lee: Called ina flight and that was to work on a couple of things one of which was to fix the gps code
[3552.03] Lee: That had been broken since base flight which came from multi-way before it's okay. It went multi-way
[3558.67] Lee: base flight clean flight inav, right, but
[3562.59] Lee: The the first jump broke the gps code. So inav
[3566.75] Lee: was about
[3568.99] Lee: Fixing all that gps stuff and what the original idea and what I think we all wanted to happen
[3574.99] Lee: Was that the when those things were fixed in those other projects?
[3578.91] Lee: Those fixes would flow back into clean flight
[3582.43] Lee: So clean flight would end up with super duper capabilities for racing
[3586.75] Lee: It would end up with all the gps stuff fixed
[3589.55] Lee: But the problem was those two projects that had been basically clean flight copies initially
[3594.81] Lee: Became so different and so far away from the base project
[3599.47] Lee: It actually started to become easier to merge clean flight into inav than the other way around
[3604.51] Lee: So the the the c had parted they were never going to come back together again
[3609.39] Lee: and and that
[3611.55] Lee: that kind of stuff is
[3613.71] Lee: Uh, it it kind of makes makes me laugh because now I know with
[3617.71] Lee: Someone's talking that inav 6 has changed about to change a lot of stuff
[3621.07] Lee: But the graphical user interface that we all use in beta flight and inav that looks so similar, you know
[3626.51] Lee: with all the tabs down the left hand side
[3629.39] Lee: That was actually created
[3631.39] Lee: When dominic was doing this stuff on clean flight and it was and it was
[3635.95] Lee: And it went into those other two projects
[3637.95] Lee: It's why beta flight and inav look so similar because essentially they're both the children of the clean clean flight project
[3644.75] Lee: It it just it's really funny when you kind of look back because you have a couple of key individuals in the history of the of the hobby
[3652.27] Lee: Who without which we just wouldn't be here today and dominick is absolutely one of those guys
[3658.59] Jack: We never got look the old you remember that
[3663.07] Lee: Look at that your step
[3665.47] Jack: Because it's the two are oh my god. No dark mode. No, nothing
[3671.55] Lee: Oh my god, this is one of my old ones, isn't it? Yeah
[3674.59] Jack: This is turned on look at that and it used to belong in the chrome
[3679.29] Lee: extensions very straightforward
[3682.99] Lee: Look at that chrome extensions
[3686.27] Lee: Wow
[3687.23] Lee: What a crock because there's probably videos of it where it used to be because it used to have the tabs along the top
[3692.03] Lee: Do you guys still remember remember that the clean flight days?
[3694.91] Lee: And the reason it changed to go down the left hand side is because you could scroll up and down in the left hand side
[3700.11] Lee: So you could add more tabs. That was the whole point and it was a guy. I can't remember the guy's name. I bet dominic had
[3706.03] Lee: who
[3707.47] Lee: Who actually designed that interface as part of the project and it's just become?
[3712.75] Lee: You know the default way that we access the beta flight and I have interfaces now. It's great. I know
[3719.71] Jack: Well, unfortunately that is all we have time for I can't believe we've covered about three things from lee's list
[3727.47] Stephen: like
[3730.67] Stephen: It just means we need to get you back sometime that's all
[3734.59] Lee: Happy to do it because I actually didn't tell you the story of the wing board
[3738.11] Lee: Which is where we're going with the clean flight thing, which maybe i'll check with dominic
[3742.51] Lee: All right me share. No, i'll check with dominic is all right. You're sharing that story
[3746.51] Jack: Yeah
[3747.63] Jack: I don't know if we if we stall dom can be like
[3752.75] Jack: You know dom can give us a thumbs up dom. Is it okay to talk about?
[3757.39] Lee: But don't just just to just to remind you so this was back in the days of early inav and it was when I
[3764.91] Lee: Suggested to you that building a flight controller specifically for fixed wing to run things like servos with a separate power supply
[3772.11] Lee: To run servos would be a good idea
[3775.31] Lee: Hello, matek
[3778.11] Lee: Um, i'm quite happy to do that story. If you were uh, if you're happy thumbs up
[3786.59] Lee: So so very quickly then to finish off because we're over the hour
[3790.91] Lee: So what was happening when inav was coming out?
[3793.23] Lee: We were all inav also had the ability unusually added not only all the gps stuff
[3798.19] Lee: It added the ability to put inav into a fixed wing
[3805.17] Lee: fixed wing
[3806.61] Lee: Inav and it also did things like return to home
[3810.13] Lee: Right inav also in the quad used to fly it back to you
[3815.01] Lee: And then used to land it and we're in for your return to home
[3817.97] Lee: I believe beta flight in version 4.4 has just caught up. Well done boys
[3822.45] Lee: But inav was doing it in 1.2 1.3
[3826.21] Lee: So I realized that because we were all taking
[3830.05] Lee: boards from
[3832.37] Lee: Drones like the omnibus f3 flight controller things like that
[3837.17] Lee: Um, I think my first one was actually an f3 believe or not. No, i'm sorry
[3842.05] Jack: I'm mistaken. No, I think yeah
[3843.97] Lee: I think the f because if you remember back in those days
[3846.93] Lee: We were using f3 and everyone was going why are we using f3 because we'll never use all of that power
[3852.69] Lee: Not all the air we've got is fine
[3855.49] Jack: Do you remember those conversations like for you are so what more could you want and we got a soft cereal?
[3861.81] Lee: Yeah, I said you will never use the power of an f f3
[3865.97] Lee: You're crazy
[3867.65] Lee: Um, so anyway, so what we were doing we were soldering
[3871.17] Lee: um servo leads onto it and we were we were turning these things into horrible frankenstein messes so that they could run
[3878.37] Lee: I ain't having a wing and my first one you can still see the series now
[3882.85] Lee: I basically hot glued all of this stuff onto the back of a teximo wing and it worked beautifully
[3889.41] Lee: It looked like something the borg
[3891.73] Lee: Had sneezed out of their nose, but it actually flew. Okay
[3896.13] Lee: And so I said to dominic at the time dom you need to make a board for wings
[3901.33] Lee: And he was like
[3903.41] Lee: Uh, I was like no, no, no wing wing flight controllers for fixed wings. They're going to be a thing
[3908.61] Lee: And he was like, okay, and he actually did an a
[3912.67] Lee: Beautiful design there were several iterations. It was actually in the shape of a flying wing
[3918.37] Lee: So the the the actual flight controller itself
[3922.37] Lee: Was actually rather than being a square was actually in the shape of an arrowhead
[3927.41] Lee: So you could tell exactly which way it went round all the pins were on the edges
[3931.57] Lee: It was absolutely brilliant and he never ever finished it and brought it out and now
[3936.51] Lee: Maytec
[3937.65] Lee: Is making money hand over fist selling maytec wing boards and things like the 411
[3943.79] Lee: Wte and the 405 woman and things like that and every inapp build is using those boards
[3950.05] Lee: And it's just I I always feel like oh I wish we'd have done that
[3954.13] Lee: It should have been done him dumb should have been sat with the coheavers and the brandy
[3959.49] Lee: What's in the movie coming?
[3961.49] Jack: Dom's dom's like pdb as well was good with with
[3967.01] Jack: Was it with thug frames as well?
[3970.77] Jack: Like he made a excellent pdb and stuff
[3974.61] Jack: Dom you got a photo I messaged you in discord
[3980.37] Stephen: At the moment because i'm trying to flash one of his flight controllers
[3983.73] Jack: Yeah, so use the stm the cube software cube pro programmer
[3990.05] Lee: Yeah, so there you go dom dom saying I did a wing board shaped like a wing. It was so pimp
[3994.69] Lee: Mate, it was it was epic and it was so ahead of its time
[3998.45] Lee: It was before anyone was doing this stuff
[4001.01] Lee: And I just wish there'd have been a seriously pro wing board because maytec wouldn't have been able to just
[4007.33] Lee: Corner that entire part of the market because you'd have been about three years four years ahead of everyone else
[4013.81] Jack: Yeah, it did the neo from to fit the fog thug frames
[4018.77] Jack: So anyway, that's all we got time for
[4025.73] Jack: Yeah, tune in next week we're live
[4028.77] Jack: every thursday from eight to nine p.m. We're sponsored by our lovely patreons who
[4037.65] Jack: Pay for the editing hosting everything keeps this show going. We wouldn't be here without them
[4043.97] Jack: Massive shout out cole has added
[4047.65] Jack: New people to it. We've also got another one for you to add as well cole
[4052.21] Jack: um, and as always it's been a pleasure
[4056.13] Jack: to have uh lee from painter 360 on
[4061.49] Jack: And we have been joined by the uh man who struggling to flash an f3 flight controller steven
[4068.85] Stephen: It's an h7 i'll have you know, but I am nonetheless still struggling. Uh, thank you very much
[4073.81] Stephen: See you next week
[4075.41] Jack: Uh, we've been joined by cole. What's that lens stuff?
[4079.25] Jack: Gold that you said chromatic aberration. So yes chromatic aberration
[4084.37] Koel: It has to do with glass and lenses and optics. Basically, it's imperfections that come in the corners or
[4091.01] Koel: You know, I I don't know the specific technical terms, but it just comes up as sort of purple and green fringing and
[4098.13] Koel: sort of
[4099.65] Koel: You know strange
[4102.61] Jack: You know characteristics and i've been bright till I fly and you've been listed to let show now, thank you very much
[4109.49] Koel: Good night
[4111.81] Koel: telemetry lost