=== Let's Drone Out — Episode 415 ===
Title: LDO 415 - UK Remote ID
Recorded: 2023-08-10
Hosts: Andrew "Frank" Hyams, Stephen "Belrik" Howell, Wayne "CurryKitten" Andrews, Jack "Brightontillifly" Nash
Guest(s): (none recorded)
Total audience: 1,246
Platforms: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnvC6Sa-oGE); SoundCloud (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/1589951647-letsdroneout-ldo-415-uk-remote-id.mp3)
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[0.0] Jack: Hello and you're listening to what's drawn out and special thank you to our lovely patrons that help donate so that we can pay the editor to remove the swear words and silly things we say massive thank you to kolos campos art folk now sam dharma on with the show.
[20.58] Stephen: Hello, and welcome to ldo 415 joined this week by everyone's favorite Harry Kitten. Hello. Our Lord and Master, Frank. Hello. And of course, right until I fly. Hello. Okay, so on a lighter note, it looks like we had a remote remote ID document or something nudging everyone in the gentle direction of with a lot of
[78.96] Stephen: sort of arms and arms and ask for public. Yeah, opinion. There's and Frank has read it all.
[86.6] Frank: Yeah, definitely read every word. I am fully briefed on everything and though everything that is happening,
[95.52] Curry: it's not entirely up to Frank. I didn't do the required reading. So please explain it to me in ways that you can understand. Well, I think it's some context to begin with. So this is a
[108.5] Frank: consultation has been opened up by the CIA, the Civil Aviation Authority, which is the UK body governing aviation. They have said you have until the 7th of September, I think it is. Bearing in mind, it is currently the 10th of August, the 7th of September to tell them what you think we should do or what they should do about laws governing
[139.34] Frank: unmanned aircraft in the UK, because even in case you hadn't noticed, sort of if you if you think way back when, before there were any rules, there were rules, but before there are any rules anyone cared about.
[154.74] Frank: Governing unmanned aviation in the UK. There was a draft set of rules by the European Aviation Space Authority, and that sort of came out. Everyone looks at it went that stupid. There was a consultation on that. That got changed.
[176.22] Frank: And that became sort of some draft rules. They became rules. They were about to come into play and then Brexit happened. So we're not following those rules. So then we said we're just going to copy and paste the European rules and do what they're doing mostly. And then it turns out that actually they don't make any sense anymore for various other reasons.
[195.66] Frank: So basically, they all depended on new hardware existing that doesn't exist. So technology hasn't moved as fast as the law in a sort of way, which is not usually how that works.
[210.54] Frank: Yeah, so they've gone, okay, those rules that we were hoping to copy and paste didn't let happen. We can't do those anymore. We're throwing them away. We're going to start again.
[221.46] Stephen: That's not entirely a fair assumption from what I can see, though, just because the rules haven't been adopted, they are still law in the rest of Europe. And large companies are still using those European laws. What we've done is gone, well, we're not part of Europe, we better rewrite anything with the word Europe in it to now say UK in it. So instead of having their laws, we've now got to come up with our own laws. And because people kind of have too much time on their hands, they've decided instead of just
[251.3] Stephen: copy pasting, that they start the entire process from scratch and have a completely new set of classes and terminology.
[257.86] Curry: So within this document, what was wrong with the current set of rules we have? Because we do work in a set of rules, don't we? Quite, quite sensible rules about, you know, not being within 50 meters of people and not going above 400 feet and that sort of thing and like having a spotter, of course, you know.
[278.22] Stephen: So apparently, those rules are confusing. And and instead of just clarifying them, people have decided the document seems to suggest that it's better to start from scratch instead of clarifying.
[291.46] Frank: Any, any long term listeners of the show have paid attention to any anything of what I've said, which is probably win, I guess, and probably no one else.
[303.1] Jack: To you, Frank, or the master?
[305.66] Frank: Well, I've noticed that the rules started out being very, very simple. And then they realized that like, model aircraft exist. And then they got a bit more complicated. And then they realized that drones without GPS exist, and they got a bit more complicated.
[320.74] Frank: And then they realized that like paper planes exist, and it got even more complicated. And then they realized that like, people want to use commercial drones for crop spraying things. Basically, you just ended up with getting more and more edge cases, and it got a very, very complicated thing.
[335.38] Frank: So what started out being a nice a five, this is all the rules in a nice, visible, understandable leaflet in that it's now like 10s or hundreds of pages of documents that you got to kind of get your head around to actually know what all the rules are.
[352.86] Frank: So I can understand them wanting to go. This is a bit ridiculous. The police aren't going to aren't going to read all this, the people doing aren't going to follow all this, we should we should try and simplify it.
[364.38] Stephen: What they've what they've been trapped by is the term drone, both meaning a tiny whoop that could be 30 grams, and also a commercial crop sprayer that could be you know, half a ton.
[376.98] Stephen: Yeah, and they've put them they've attempted to write a set of legislation for drones and not really thought about what that term might encompass before embarking on the legislation. So we had previously a class mark system that was supposed to come into into being this year or last year.
[394.62] Stephen: Where we'd assumed that there were going to be a set of class markings that would cover the kind of weight grades and sizes of each drone.
[403.3] Stephen: And those class markings would would cover pre built drones and they'd be stamped from the factory and they go past a set of validation that would make sure they were fifth of purpose and they'd have safety equipment that fitted in with that class.
[416.74] Stephen: And then there was this exemption for self built stuff, where they went oops, yep, there's a category of people who are just building their own things and they're not going to have these class marks. So we'll create an exemption for them.
[427.3] Stephen: And that was the current landscape, right? And it seems that that was confusing. Sure, but
[434.78] Stephen: so far, the alternative is let's make it not less confusing. So
[440.3] Stephen: someone said it's too confusing, we need to redesign the system, but they've not given us a better example of what they're going to do. So there's every chance they'll go away into a shed for nine months and then come back with a system with 23 different classes and 500 pages of document test instead of the current system.
[459.86] Frank: Well, the problem is, I think that they're going to go away and they're going to come back with a, again, a one page system that doesn't
[468.94] Frank: consider the
[469.5] Stephen: design for Amazon and sponsored by Amazon. Yeah.
[472.5] Frank: Well, yes, I mean, remember, like, this is very important to remember when you're responding to the consultation, which I think everyone should do. But, you know, we don't entirely have. Okay, so sort of before you
[488.74] Frank: respond, be aware, the BMFA are in talks with people. They're trying to work out sort of the best way that we could all send in the same thing ish and meet the right points. And, you know, they're going to come out with some advice for what's going to be the most constructive way of responding to this consultation.
[505.78] Frank: So be aware of that before you respond. But also, if you're going to ignore that, because you don't want to follow the BMFA, which is fine.
[515.82] Frank: Make sure that you remember that person on the receipt that you're not on a soapbox declaring this to a big grand jury of people who just want to squash you. You're not you're not taking it to the man. Okay, you're, you're sending in an email.
[531.7] Frank: And there's someone who is sat in a cubicle somewhere, who just wants to pay their bills, who probably got their jobs because they, you know, heard of spitfire flying overhead and got inspired by aviation or watch Top Gun or whatever, they have some interest in aviation, or at least said they did it in an interview at some point.
[551.26] Frank: They they want, you know, they have dreams of flying. And they're now sat in a cubicle in a glass walled office, staring at the emails that you send into them. Remember, that's who you're talking to. So don't tell them that they're killing the hobby because they probably don't care. And it's what they're looking for is constructive suggestions.
[572.98] Frank: What they're also looking for is constructive suggestions that lots of people make. That is the other thing, you know, if you get lots of people having nice, short, concise, brief things that say a lot of the same points that are understandable, what might be a sensible and rational retort that would, you know, resonate with a large audience?
[592.98] Frank: Well, for example, model aircraft and drones are a cheap way into aviation and engineering and STEM and STEM and all of that, all the things that, you know, the ministers are going to want to support who are ultimately the cubicle workers offices, your MPs.
[618.98] Frank: So the things they're going to want, they want to support STEM and engineering and all of that kind of thing, British business, all of that. I know. Yeah, exactly.
[629.98] Frank: Jack is right now. Yeah. Yeah. And then they're going to want to support all of that. Currently drones, model aircrafts, cheap way into it.
[641.98] Frank: And it's, you know, fairly low barriers to entry. You can go to a park to do it. You can buy a thing for not very much money and go and do it. You can find people doing it. All of that. If all of a sudden you have to have this electronic conspicuity bit of gear and this proprietary bit of hardware to do something else, it's going to make it very expensive.
[669.98] Frank: And it's going to raise that barrier to entry and harm the industry, harm the economy. It's going to be bad for all the things the ministers are talking about.
[678.98] Frank: That sort of thing is probably going to be more constructive than you're killing the hobby because they don't care. So that's that's possibly something to think about.
[690.98] Frank: But, you know, because consultations have had an effect. So with the the original proposal that ended up being changed a lot before it actually became any rules that anyone had to follow.
[708.98] Frank: When the UK drone register, they had a consultation on that. A lot of that responses to that were not very constructive. Basically, the only thing that I can remember coming out of the consultations for that was the minister at the time got involved and said, ah, I know about the CIA costing people lots of money.
[731.98] Frank: So I'm going to reduce the price from whatever it was twelve pounds to seven pounds fifty or something, which made such a difference. But the point is the consultation was read and listened to and did have some kind of an effect.
[747.98] Frank: So it isn't it isn't just a waste of time necessarily. It's I would feel it's actually probably more directly constructive than voting personally. But that's that's my own opinion.
[764.98] Frank: You know, you can actually have potentially some kind of an effect. We have even had two people, two listeners of the show have had consultation responses to previous consultations recorded as a matter of public records.
[777.98] Frank: So, you know, that's out of the size of our listenership to have to personally identified. That's pretty good going. So see if we can do that again.
[790.98] Frank: But yeah, don't like when says in the chat, don't take the box and scream. Screw the man. You want to be short, readable, concise, constructive.
[806.98] Frank: You want a post-it note that explains to someone who doesn't really care what they should actually be doing and what a minister might actually care about. So that's the things to think about.
[817.98] Frank: We do have a few weeks to send this in. I don't know whether it will matter whether you send it in to begin with or the end. I don't know.
[829.98] Frank: You know, are they going to be waiting until everything's there and reading all in one go? Are they going to filter it by if we get loads of responses to begin with? Just rubbish. Let's just throw them all up in. I don't know.
[841.98] Stephen: I focused on the implementation difficulties of taking a GPS unit and putting it on a pre-existing drone because a lot of them, some small stuff like tiny whoops, they can't physically lift a GPS unit.
[855.98] Stephen: Yep. Airframes don't always, even if the weight bearing allows for it, airframes don't allow for the attachment of GPS. And further to that, the flight control units often do not provide sufficient IO options to attach a GPS if you're running an old unit. You may not be able to do that.
[874.98] Stephen: Coupled with the fact that you're dealing with people who built their own hardware for whom spoofing a bunch of remote ID information is just a bit of a giggle. So what are you going to achieve? You're going to ask people who would normally behave themselves to police themselves and you're going to end up with a couple of clowns who create 20 different drones that are all fake flying around in circles or drawing cock and balls in the surrounding area.
[901.98] Stephen: And the people who are likely to cause any sort of harm or endanger privacy or endanger critical infrastructure are just going to avoid doing this or they're going to buy pre-built drones and they're going to disable it. So what do you gain at the end of the day?
[919.98] Frank: And the other thing is, you know, you're saying that tiny whoops like a tiny loop is a perfect example because it's got a camera on it, which they're using as a way to separate out, you know, a drone from a model aircraft that they shouldn't worry about legislating against. So it's got a camera on it.
[937.98] Frank: But it's it doesn't have, you know, it's a multi-rotor, but it's not GPS controlled. So that will blow their minds that you can have a multi-rotor that doesn't have GPS.
[948.98] Stephen: I seriously worry about my cats destroying them. Like it's small enough that a collision with a small cat is likely to result in cat one drone nil.
[957.98] Frank: Yeah, it's it's small enough and light enough that it is inherently safe, as we have demonstrated many times flying tiny whips into Tony's face in slow motion.
[968.98] Stephen: If you really try, you can maybe scratch someone's face. But if you throw enough biros at someone's head, you can do that as well. That doesn't mean they're inherently dangerous.
[977.98] Frank: A tiny with is inherently safe, but it can fly outdoors. It can fly out, you know, it can fly outside in some reasonably high winds.
[986.98] Frank: Like, you know, it's it's not the sort of thing that's just going to got to be waiting for a dead calm evening.
[994.98] Frank: It's something that's fairly cheap and accessible to a wide range of people who don't necessarily have access to a car, who don't necessarily have lots of money, who are not necessarily, you know, adults.
[1010.98] Stephen: Yeah, it's a perfect example of the sort of thing they need to be aware of. And that follows from a point in the survey where people were very confused by the classification of some some parts of it didn't apply to toys.
[1024.98] Stephen: And they were under the impression that if they bought something as a ready to fly kit on Amazon, and it was, you know, a tiny boot, maybe it weighed under 50 grams that that it was a toy.
[1036.98] Stephen: But actually, the classification of a toy in terms of those laws was governed by a very strict set of legislation relating to, you know, can the parts be swallowed?
[1046.98] Stephen: Has it passed a particular set of safety tests, which these kids weren't meeting?
[1053.98] Frank: Yeah, well, a tiny loop is what is not going to meet a toy legislation, the toy legislation is like, amongst product designers, toy legislation is like the highest level of like, but there's there's medical grades, and there's toy grade,
[1068.98] Stephen: you can you give this to a toddler, and they'll still be alive if left in a room for 30 minutes with the product.
[1074.98] Frank: Exactly, exactly. There's that's a very, very high bar to meet. It's not something that your average hobby grade tiny loop is going to meet in a million years. I noticed in the chat, Dominic Clifton has a very, very good point.
[1091.98] Frank: And I think it ties in with something winners also said, you don't want to be saying, understanding the motives for the legislation and offering a counter proposal.
[1100.98] Frank: Mine's also helped. And this ties in with what we're saying, which is that they're considering geo awareness. And I think this ties in with the sort of general feeling of like, oh, Amazon are coming for our airspace.
[1115.98] Frank: And, you know, there's there's a definite grain of truth in that as they usually is. So if you've been following the sort of commercial drone news over the past few years, you'll have seen a lot about drone corridors and beyond visual line of sight operations becoming a bit more normalized.
[1137.98] Frank: If you've seen in in Germany, kind of how they're particularly looking at setting up a commercial drone automated beyond visual line of sight stuff in a band of airspace between 400 feet and 500 feet.
[1151.98] Frank: And so all those ideas are kind of merging in the CIA trying to work out how to do sort of equivalent of air traffic control, but for unmanned aircraft.
[1166.98] Frank: So that's probably where a lot of this is coming from, is they're trying to work out how do we have, you know, there's already a lot of island operations like going to the Shetland Islands, going to the Isle of Wight.
[1182.98] Frank: There's there's operations there where they're operating fairly autonomously, fairly beyond visual line of sight, even if at the moment the companies are having to kind of have an actual pilot follow it along and pretend or have a dead man switch and just for investors pretend that it's autonomous and pretend for legislators that it's entirely under their control.
[1206.98] Frank: So that I imagine that's a lot of what's the thinking is behind this is that they're trying to go, okay, how are we going to have a load of drones going from point A to point B without someone actually driving underneath them and how to do that safely.
[1222.98] Frank: Like we've been seeing with the zip line stuff over in Zimbabwe, if you've seen Mark Roga's channel doing a nice big deep dive on that, as we have Luelle talking about.
[1233.98] Frank: There's a lot of that kind of thing going elsewhere in the world. The UK is going to want to kind of get in on that. So how do we manage that in the UK?
[1243.98] Frank: That's a very rational argument. And there's a lot of good points to be made, unfortunately.
[1249.98] Stephen: Whenever drones hit the news, it tends to be with the mass hysteria, you know, oh, think of the implications to national security. Oh, someone save the children sort of big drama hysteria events. Exactly.
[1261.98] Stephen: And those are the headlines that move the needle politically, not rational thinking about innovation and technological advancements and stem opportunities.
[1271.98] Curry: Sorry, I was just gonna say, there's another problem with this document. And that's the fact that, yeah, you can, you know, a little bit cynical about replying to things whether you just, I feel they're being ignored anyway.
[1286.98] Curry: But where they where they write stuff about remote ID, and they talk about like how, and I'm just speed reading it, they talk about how the police are having trouble identifying the perpetrators and remote ID is going to solve it.
[1300.98] Curry: The fact that they don't acknowledge that if someone's doing bad stuff, and we'll put it in terms, we can understand like, okay, someone's going to rob a bank.
[1312.98] Curry: You'll notice they didn't use their own car, because you can get them with the registration plate. And obviously, someone intent on doing something bad, either the bad actors, as we call them, isn't going to register a drone or carry.
[1325.98] Stephen: In fact, they're much more likely to go down the woods somewhere and try and, you know, if they're really clever, they'll grab someone else's remote ID.
[1334.98] Curry: Very glad you brought this up. So, so we could feed that back. But the fact in the document, these, you know, people writing this who I'm sure are quite well paid and well respected in the industry, can't see this, worries me.
[1350.98] Curry: It's like it's been written by children.
[1352.98] Stephen: And also what happens if you give a nice expensive toy to your kid, and they go off somewhere beautiful to fly it, and they advertise their location to someone who comes up punches them in the head and steals their drone.
[1363.98] Frank: That is, that is a very relevant point to make. But back to the, let's take your bank robber analogy. So it's very, very hard to identify when someone has a swapped license plate on their car.
[1380.98] Frank: But if you, you know, it's very hard to find the bank robbers. But if you stop someone, if the police think they know who it is, but they're not sure.
[1390.98] Frank: And they can't prove that they did the bank robbery, but they can prove they have some stolen plates in the back of their car. Now, all of a sudden, you can charge them for that.
[1398.98] Frank: That's what they're talking about. They're saying it's easier to prosecute someone for having a drone that's had its remote ID disabled or doesn't have remote ID and they've clearly been flying it.
[1408.98] Frank: Then it is to prove that they've been flying it over the prison two miles away. That's a switch that you can make with a car, you've got to get a screwdriver, you've got to have another set of plates.
[1419.98] Stephen: With an electronic system, you could just, you know, run an app on your phone and change it, and then change it back when you're done.
[1427.98] Curry: We have to rely on the police not having a good, like a suspect to go in search. If it's, if they're sort of saying, okay, or someone was, it's the old argument, someone's flying this drone dangerously over the park.
[1446.98] Curry: And perhaps, you know, there is a guy in the park and he's flying safely using his remote ID. And there's a guy not using remote ID.
[1454.98] Curry: It's going to then come back to the guy that's doing it lawfully. And it's, it's the old, let's punish the people that are doing things right, because the criminals aren't stupid enough to say.
[1466.98] Stephen: There are remote ID systems as well. So for all this hassle of implementing it, it's a beacon system that's based on Bluetooth, right?
[1474.98] Stephen: And, you know, with all the best will in the world, Bluetooth Bluetooth range is for compared to the radio link systems that we use.
[1484.98] Stephen: So you're not going to have the same antenna on your Bluetooth module broadcasting your ID as you are with your control link.
[1492.98] Stephen: So you're going to be at a distance where you can control the drone, where, you know, people receive a notification, there's a drone flying there that's nowhere near you anyway.
[1504.98] Stephen: You know, you might only be able to get the Bluetooth signal for a hundred meters around the quad and you could be flying from 10K away.
[1513.49] Stephen: So how is this helping anyone, you know?
[1517.49] Frank: But like you say, this is a sort of technical level of implementation that they're not going to be worrying about at the moment.
[1524.49] Frank: They're going to be working out what's the kind of concept of legislating this that we should be working on now.
[1532.49] Frank: We'll work out the details of the technical implementation later, which is clearly what I've done previously.
[1537.49] Frank: It hasn't entirely worked out pretty well for them, but that's what they've genuinely been doing.
[1542.49] Curry: There's a phrase about trying the same stuff over and over again and expecting a different result is a sign of madness.
[1551.49] Jack: I'd just like to point out that, like, you know, so many people got poned regarding the electoral record and nothing was done, nothing was said as well.
[1564.49] Jack: And I'd just like to, you know, like, how secure is that CA list?
[1570.49] Curry: I do like the fact that they said, oh, sorry, we found out that your data got stolen two years ago, so be careful about your data.
[1580.49] Curry: It's like, we didn't lose it. You did.
[1583.49] Curry: And now you're telling us two years later, if any if any dodgy transactions happened over the past two years, be careful.
[1591.49] Jack: And like the other side of it is I think maybe we should get, you know, like those foam waffle bats.
[1600.49] Jack: And maybe if this does come in, a group of us should just drive round locally, find people, hit them with the foam bats and be like, we're pretending to be robbers and we've just beaten the shit out of you taking all your stuff.
[1617.49] Jack: And they just go around harassing people flying drones because it's almost like a giant beacon for, hey, we've got expensive stuff.
[1626.49] Frank: Where's the banner? Any views expressed?
[1632.49] Jack: Any ideas?
[1633.49] Jack: That's come up again.
[1635.49] Jack: A person may not have threatened the view of others.
[1638.49] Jack: Leave it running, mate. Leave it running.
[1641.49] Jack: Do you know what I mean? It's just like, it's almost like, you know, a remote ID, the Cerakol fans.
[1652.49] Jack: So you know where they are at all times.
[1655.49] Jack: Yeah.
[1656.49] Stephen: It's become available just to, you know, give them to all the little bored kids in Peckham or whatever.
[1661.49] Stephen: They can slap them on whatever they want.
[1663.49] Stephen: People's cars and things.
[1665.49] Stephen: Just have them driving around, have a merry old chase going on.
[1674.49] Curry: I want to keep repeating common sense to these people.
[1676.49] Stephen: The opportunity for abuse is really high because as people have shown very quickly after the American system, kind of.
[1684.49] Stephen: But really before the products landed, you had systems that were taking an Arduino or other low cost compute devices, you know, under $10, maybe even under $5.
[1694.49] Stephen: And turning it into a system that could broadcast 10, 20 fake remote ID signatures.
[1702.49] Stephen: And if that becomes commonplace, then what you're going to see is this is a system where all you have are people, you know, crying wolf.
[1710.49] Stephen: And the signal to noise ratio of the data as a whole is terrible.
[1713.49] Stephen: You know, you've got thousands of remote ID signature with everyone drawing obscene slogans over the map.
[1721.49] Stephen: And one or two people are flying fields who are going up and down in straight lines or circles who are the actual real users.
[1728.49] Stephen: And you're not going to be able to tell them from the noise.
[1732.49] Frank: Quite possibly.
[1734.49] Frank: But remember sort of what they're trying to get to is the point where like ADS-B, which is the kind of the manned, the full scale electronic conspicuity thing that's the main one there.
[1746.49] Frank: So if you've been on to flight radar 24 or ADS-B exchange or anything like that, you'll see, you know, so the transponder on the aircraft, it's transmitting its location and its height.
[1760.49] Frank: And then that's that sort of being gathered by local antennas and being fed back into the database.
[1765.49] Frank: And then you're pulling on that.
[1766.49] Frank: And there are situations where, you know, you can you can find where people are working on these or testing them because you'll see all of a sudden there's there's 180 just appear in a big circle around this office somewhere.
[1780.49] Frank: You know, that that sort of stuff does happen, but it's it's not it doesn't happen enough to cause a problem for aviation generally.
[1789.49] Frank: And if they're looking at having, you know, thousands of delivery drones going between Winchester and Southampton, then it's it's not really going to worry them if someone's drawing a cock over in Cornwall.
[1809.49] Stephen: But if there's thousands named millions of cock and balls drawn over the whole of this septet aisle from Jono Groats to wherever, you know, that's going to be a problem.
[1821.49] Stephen: Yeah. Well, as long as as long as the delivery drones avoid driving or flying through the cock and balls, what you're going to have is the drones end up basically tracing around the faint outlines of cock and balls up and down the nation to try and avoid them.
[1835.49] Stephen: That's what's going to happen.
[1837.49] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. You get like a contour like there's a joint cock hill somewhere.
[1845.49] Stephen: I'm just pretty sure that that's what people are going to do. They're just going to draw a giant Willy's because people are children no matter their.
[1852.49] Frank: I imagine that will happen for the first few months and then people will get bored. And I imagine that's what they're.
[1859.49] Stephen: Well, what faith do you have in the human race, Frank? I applaud you.
[1864.49] Frank: This episode was recorded in front of a live online audience, downloaded and edited to make sense when it played audio only, censored to please the iTunes people hosted on the Internet, forwarded through to your podcast provider, downloaded, playing on your device and is now playing in your ears.
[1879.49] Frank: All thanks to our Patreons. Consider joining them and you'll also get other online benefits.
[1884.49] Frank: Find out more at patreon.com.
[1890.49] Curry: I take it we can still do stuff like pad pad paragliding and there's literally no legislation.
[1898.49] Curry: You can just go off and fly around and do whatever you like.
[1904.49] Curry: In which case could you do drone flying whilst pad pad paragliding and maybe that's a look around.
[1911.49] Frank: You say that, but if you speak to any light aircraft pilots, general aviation pilots flying in the little microlights and things, they will be very happy to tell you how much more airspace, particularly in the southeast of England, has got control over the past five years and how much more, how much less space there is where you can fly without a transponder, that you can fly without a radio.
[1941.49] Frank: That is generally a thing that is becoming more required even for the paragliding and things is a radio.
[1949.49] Stephen: I take Cara's on this way. You know, every car needs like a man in front of them to warn people they're coming. It's unbelievable.
[1956.49] Curry: It's a gospel circle, the man with the flag, keeping the speed.
[1960.49] Frank: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But remember, constructive criticism please.
[1966.49] Stephen: I think if you're a person in an aircraft, you should absolutely have electronic conspicuity.
[1971.49] Stephen: Like if you can't design an extra hundred grams in for some electronic conspicuity in your ultralight or your glider, then you've really done a pissball job of designing it.
[1984.49] Frank: There is that, but also remember that they generally have a few more levels of redundancy and reliability to worry about in an aircraft that's actually got a human in it and is flying over other humans than your average.
[2000.49] Stephen: You say they may need slightly more complex batteries?
[2004.49] Frank: Yeah, you know, you might have a few more considerations when you're tying it into your other electronics, your avionics.
[2011.49] Frank: You want to make sure that it doesn't accidentally spit out a voltage spike into the thing that keeps you knowing where you are and being able to speak to people.
[2019.49] Stephen: Just give an extra 20 grams to some capacitors and TVS diodes perhaps?
[2025.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2027.49] Stephen: These people are flying through the air in crates made of fiberglass they've put together themselves.
[2033.49] Frank: That is what I'm saying, it's like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, a lot of light aircraft were like, there's no way we can hold this stuff.
[2041.49] Frank: And now most of them have got something in, even if they turn it off most of the time.
[2046.49] Stephen: They'll deny they can take up electronic conspicuity, but they'll have like a Bluetooth speaker in there so they can play some tunes on their phone while they're up there gliding off.
[2054.49] Stephen: Yeah, absolutely.
[2055.49] Frank: Most of them don't actually have like an actual paper map anymore, they just have their iPad.
[2060.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2061.49] Frank: There's a lot on that.
[2063.49] Jack: Yeah.
[2064.49] Jack: And one point to like drag back to the whole like, you know, prosecuting the right person.
[2073.49] Jack: And I'm sorry to use the G word but you remember Gatwick, you know, and the thing is, my, my, my conspicuous by his absence.
[2084.49] Jack: Yeah.
[2085.49] Jack: Guilty.
[2086.49] Jack: My sort of take on it is like with the guy.
[2090.49] Jack: They, they just wanted when they didn't know who it was and they just wanted to be seen doing find a guy that's flying helis guilty.
[2099.49] Jack: Yeah.
[2100.49] Frank: And then he's got drones.
[2102.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2103.49] Stephen: He could have been flying for now with one of those scale helis.
[2108.49] Curry: Imagine if they if they they raided Steven or mine house and you'd see it in the press.
[2114.49] Curry: It's like they're just carrying out drone off the drone.
[2116.49] Curry: He's such a wrong and we've recovered like the street value of like a million pounds these drones.
[2121.49] Curry: They just laid them out all there and take photos like it was a big drugs raid.
[2125.49] Frank: That would be just walking out with like the forensic suit on this big plastic clear plastic bags for the drones.
[2132.49] Frank: Why did you why did you hold up Gatwick?
[2136.49] Stephen: What?
[2137.49] Stephen: Yeah.
[2138.49] Frank: I think that's, that's a fair concern to have.
[2142.49] Stephen: Yeah, it comes back to the demonization, right?
[2144.49] Stephen: Because we had this huge media hysteria over Gatwick.
[2148.49] Stephen: We all made a big laugh about it, but there was a freedom of information request that came out, which said, well, yeah, there's no actual substantiated evidence that this was a drone.
[2158.49] Stephen: It might have been a police helicopter or at very worst, a police drone that people then thought was the actual drone the police drone was looking for.
[2168.49] Frank: And we found the toy drone, but it had been there for months.
[2171.49] Frank: Yes.
[2172.49] Stephen: It was that as well.
[2175.49] Stephen: And there's the newest thing was a bunch of balloons that flew off like a couple of miles down the road.
[2182.49] Stephen: It's just all more and more.
[2186.49] Curry: Look at headlines.
[2189.49] Curry: With this document is what is the likelihood of places like the BFMA selling out in order to say, it's okay, you can fly our fields and you don't need to have remote ID in that because that's pretty much what happened in the US, isn't it?
[2207.49] Frank: Well, that's also kind of what happened in the UK as well, that the 400 foot exemption, you know, the BMFA and FPVK, all of them were all set in the same room, conceded the 400 foot exemption for, you know, multirotors would have to stick to the 400 foot limit as long as everything else is allowed.
[2231.49] Stephen: My plane might just have a couple of extra props.
[2234.49] Stephen: What about that?
[2236.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2237.49] Frank: Well, it's more than two, isn't it?
[2239.49] Frank: I think that's that's the rule.
[2241.49] Frank: You're not allowed to have two more than two lifting props for it to go more than four hundred foot.
[2248.49] Stephen: It's not. It's going to be a rotorcraft, a rotor.
[2250.49] Stephen: It's actually the law doesn't say a plane.
[2253.49] Stephen: It's a rotorcraft with more than one propeller.
[2256.49] Stephen: So I think you're allowed to fly a helicopter above that height, but not a drone because everyone can also rotate their 3D heli safely down as they frequent.
[2264.49] Stephen: We do, which is why they're never damaged.
[2267.49] Stephen: Good. Glad to hear it.
[2270.49] Frank: Yeah, I mean, I that's also potentially a little bit concerned is, you know, our multirotors slash FPV, you know, sort of the fringe is, you know, from the point of view of error modeling generally, is there going to be a fringe aspect of it that gets ejected
[2293.49] Frank: from the balloon in order to keep everyone else aloft?
[2297.49] Frank: That's potentially a concern to have.
[2300.49] Frank: But as we've noticed, even a lot more FPV pilots have been joining the BMFA.
[2305.49] Frank: So maybe that'll make a difference.
[2307.49] Curry: One more.
[2311.49] Curry: The free flight models come under this as well.
[2314.49] Curry: Well, they have to start attaching GPSs as they're just launching weirdly into a field and wondering where it's going to go.
[2321.49] Frank: Even control line, I've had to worry about this before.
[2325.49] Frank: Where's it going?
[2326.49] Curry: In this circle.
[2328.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2330.49] Frank: They've genuinely had to have like, had to have words like, do we really have to apply a control line?
[2339.49] Frank: This is so dumb.
[2340.49] Stephen: The line breaks, you know, it's actually a lot more dangerous than most drones.
[2344.49] Stephen: The control line line breaks.
[2346.49] Stephen: You're like, where's it going?
[2348.49] Stephen: I don't know.
[2349.49] Stephen: But it's going through throttle.
[2350.49] Stephen: In a straight line, very fast.
[2352.49] Stephen: Well, you say it's probably largely parabolic with a little bit of side to side.
[2358.49] Curry: Yeah.
[2359.49] Curry: Is it acceptable to deliver your responses to the CA by crashing them through a window with a drone?
[2365.49] Curry: I think that's the requesting method.
[2369.49] Frank: Any of you.
[2371.49] Stephen: Four model aircraft fliers.
[2373.49] Stephen: One model aircraft fliers.
[2376.49] Frank: This, you know.
[2378.49] Frank: Human being on the receiving end of this, who is probably vaguely interested in some kind of aspect of aviation, probably not our side.
[2387.49] Frank: But because there's a lot more to aviation than us.
[2390.49] Frank: Oh, my word.
[2391.49] Stephen: Caroline Tyler just commented that there is such a thing as pulse jet control line.
[2397.49] Frank: Oh, yeah.
[2399.49] Frank: Sweet Jesus, no.
[2401.49] Stephen: Sweet Jesus, no.
[2403.49] Frank: I really, really wish that the BMFA nationals were still happening in one place.
[2408.49] Frank: So they they used to be all on RAF Marksman Heath and they would have literally every type of model aircraft would be there, including the pulse jet control lines who everyone refers to as the alarm clocks because they get up ridiculously early in the morning.
[2428.49] Frank: They're like Tony, like Tony's FPV clock.
[2431.49] Frank: That is control line o'clock.
[2433.49] Frank: You just.
[2439.49] Frank: Just very early in the morning.
[2440.49] Frank: It's why is it like Audi drivers?
[2444.49] Stephen: Like you've got to be a certain kind of a person to own one of them.
[2449.49] Frank: Death, I think.
[2451.49] Frank: I think that's the main criteria.
[2454.49] Frank: But I mean, they're very impressive.
[2457.49] Frank: They go very, very fast.
[2460.49] Stephen: As long as you can hold on to them, I imagine the risk of letting slip the line would be heightened.
[2465.49] Frank: They're sort of enclosed in these kind of mesh circles.
[2470.49] Frank: OK.
[2472.49] Stephen: Yeah, I'm still not sure I'd necessarily trust a pulse jet, even if it was enclosed.
[2478.49] Curry: I think you can just stop at the sentence.
[2480.49] Curry: I wouldn't necessarily trust a pulse jet.
[2483.49] Curry: Under any circumstances.
[2486.49] Stephen: Yeah.
[2487.49] Stephen: And lipo fires seem reassuringly homely uncomfortable after hearing about all this.
[2493.49] Curry: I mean, lipos don't glow under normal use.
[2496.49] Curry: No, there is that.
[2499.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2501.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2503.49] Frank: It's definitely been.
[2505.49] Frank: There's a lot out there.
[2506.49] Frank: Let's put it that way.
[2509.49] Curry: We're all doomed.
[2510.49] Curry: The end is nine.
[2512.49] Stephen: Dom suggests that you make your delivery to the BMFA with a heli or fixed wing.
[2518.49] Stephen: It's the proof method.
[2520.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2521.49] Frank: Yeah.
[2522.49] Frank: Remember, as a human being on the receiving end of anything you send them.
[2527.49] Curry: Are you related to them or something, Frank?
[2528.49] Curry: You're defending them a lot.
[2529.49] Curry: It's not a human being.
[2530.49] Curry: It's just a TGI, Matrice.
[2531.49] Curry: They're very literally.
[2532.49] Curry: I might just be using AI just to go through all the lists and stuff.
[2536.49] Frank: I mean, I would.
[2537.49] Frank: I wouldn't want to read everything that...
[2540.49] Frank: Oh, my God.
[2541.49] Stephen: The screens.
[2542.49] Stephen: Oh, my word.
[2543.49] Stephen: How many walls of text do you think they get an average day from people with nothing else to do?
[2548.49] Frank: There's a lot of people, particularly at the moment, like the weather is not being great.
[2551.49] Frank: There's a lot of people with a lot of built up, pent up anger and frustration about not being able to fly their models.
[2559.49] Frank: Can you imagine what's going to come out of that?
[2563.49] Frank: Yeah, I would not want to be spending my day reading all of that.
[2568.49] Frank: That would require a lot of trips to the pub.
[2574.49] Stephen: Should we end on a light note with something slightly different?
[2577.49] Stephen: Please.
[2579.49] Stephen: So last week I was going to bring this up, but with the wing talk, it didn't seem to fit.
[2583.49] Stephen: I noticed that there had recently been Mario FPV, who'd been banging on about this WFB-NG project,
[2594.49] Stephen: which was like a Raspberry Pi based system that was sort of the follow on from the open HD stuff that Curry's been looking at.
[2601.49] Stephen: He'd recently been looking at some subtly different approaches.
[2605.49] Stephen: Previously, they had the Raspberry Pi and then you had to go out and buy a camera
[2609.49] Stephen: and so you'd have to find exactly the right camera module and hook it up.
[2612.49] Stephen: And it was all a bit for Pallava, quite expensive.
[2615.49] Stephen: There's a project that they've been working on recently where they take off the shelf webcam chips,
[2622.49] Stephen: the sort of thing you might use as a security camera or a baby monitor.
[2626.49] Stephen: You might already have kicking around the house from some random purchase
[2630.49] Stephen: you got that happened to have Wi-Fi in it and a camera module.
[2634.49] Stephen: And being able to flash these and repurpose them as FPV cameras,
[2638.49] Stephen: in much the same way as we originally started out FPV,
[2641.49] Stephen: taking security cameras that were analog and had transmissors in them,
[2645.49] Stephen: repurposing them and putting them on aircraft.
[2647.49] Stephen: What they're doing is they're taking cameras that are used for security purposes
[2651.49] Stephen: around the home that might be running power over ethernet
[2655.49] Stephen: or just like a 12 volt power or something in them
[2658.49] Stephen: and taking them and putting them into FPV systems.
[2661.49] Stephen: And so there's this open IPC system which has an FPV fork, I guess you'd call it,
[2669.49] Stephen: where you flash your existing webcam and you turn the entire webcam
[2673.49] Stephen: since a CPU network controller into a kind of a standalone system
[2678.49] Stephen: you just plug an antenna into and off you go.
[2681.49] Stephen: That was interesting. So one to watch.
[2683.49] Curry: Yeah, I saw that one as well.
[2685.49] Curry: I think he was still using an external Wi-Fi card on that one.
[2689.49] Curry: Yeah.
[2690.49] Curry: What they were taking out was the Raspberry Pi in the air.
[2695.49] Curry: So you're getting a sort of simpler system
[2699.49] Curry: and somebody already went on, oh, you're going to test it.
[2702.49] Curry: And it's like, yeah, I've still got to get around to doing the last bits.
[2705.49] Curry: But I wish I'd stick an OSD on it as well. That would be quite nice.
[2709.49] Stephen: Well, I also noticed he was recommending a much cheaper Wi-Fi card
[2713.49] Stephen: because you had some incredibly pricey bit of kit.
[2716.49] Curry: Yeah, yeah, there are cheaper ones available via...
[2722.49] Curry: There was this other Chinese warehouse taboo or something, taboo.
[2727.49] Curry: Which was doing one, but it was a slight hassle to get.
[2733.49] Curry: It wasn't this plug and play for OpenHD back in the day.
[2737.49] Stephen: He'd recommended one on AliExpress that is an Atharos,
[2742.49] Stephen: Qualcomm Atharos system, AR9271 for those who care about numbers,
[2748.49] Stephen: which is just a USB plug on one end and an SMA on another.
[2752.49] Stephen: And that's 13 quid plus shipping and tax.
[2756.49] Stephen: About 15 and 16 quid. So a lot cheaper.
[2758.49] Curry: Things have definitely moved on there because even as far as OpenHD goes,
[2763.49] Curry: now it's easier to use different cameras
[2766.49] Curry: and I think they've expanded the stuff for the Wi-Fi thing as well
[2771.49] Curry: because it was literally, oh, does it have this chipset?
[2774.49] Curry: Yeah, then it's going to work.
[2775.49] Curry: And now it's like, oh, we're using a better set of drivers
[2779.49] Curry: and it's all better supported.
[2781.49] Curry: Yeah, there's a couple of options now.
[2783.49] Curry: There's OpenHD, there's WFB, whatever it was, there's RubyHD
[2788.49] Curry: and now there's the OpenIPC project.
[2791.49] Curry: So there's lots about.
[2794.49] Stephen: The cost really appealed to me because I think you were paying like 50 quid
[2798.49] Stephen: to get a fancy camera.
[2800.49] Stephen: But these modules that have the built-in camera module and a CPU
[2804.49] Stephen: are under 20 quid.
[2806.49] Curry: Yeah, hopefully, I've got my office reorg week infinity.
[2813.49] Curry: I have got an old remote monitor which I'm wondering what the chipset is for.
[2818.49] Curry: I used it when we first got the dog and we had to monitor the dog
[2822.49] Curry: to make sure she was okay when we were out,
[2824.49] Curry: which is like basically a Wi-Fi camera I could hook into it.
[2828.49] Curry: I must open it up and have a look at what the chipset is
[2830.49] Curry: because we've got no use for it anymore.
[2833.49] Stephen: Well, on that more positive note,
[2835.49] Stephen: I've maybe seen cheaper FUV solutions.
[2839.49] Stephen: We should probably wrap it and thanks everyone for our stream change.
[2844.49] Curry: We haven't been going long enough.
[2846.49] Stephen: We've only been going long enough.
[2848.49] Stephen: My curry's going to arrive in four minutes.
[2852.49] Curry: This is the problem when you order based on us being on time, isn't it?
[2857.49] Frank: Oh, dear.
[2859.49] Frank: Before we wrap up,
[2861.49] Frank: by the time this goes out as your audio podcast,
[2866.49] Frank: it will be coming up to the weekend of the 18th, 19th and 20th of August
[2873.49] Frank: when it will be the Wing Racing League Wings Over Command and Race.
[2879.49] Frank: So I will be back out into Wales
[2882.49] Frank: and trying to keep my wing flying through another weekend
[2886.49] Frank: of crashing into a big, difficult gate.
[2889.49] Frank: So if anyone else is looking for something to do that weekend,
[2894.49] Frank: I'm sure there are still spaces.
[2898.49] Jack: Am I right in thinking that next week's LDO's birthday?
[2905.49] Frank: Yeah, eight years of let's turn out next week.
[2910.49] Frank: Any plans?
[2913.49] Frank: I haven't seen any.
[2915.49] Frank: No.
[2917.49] Stephen: No, just take the classical approach
[2919.49] Stephen: and go out like a damp firework,
[2921.49] Stephen: stolen from content halfway through the show.
[2923.49] Frank: We haven't had fireworks for quite a while.
[2926.49] Jack: Whether they have joined or made enough.
[2929.49] Jack: Search Amazon.
[2933.49] Frank: Any suggestions in the chat slash comments slash Facebook slash?
[2937.49] Stephen: Send fireworks to Jack.
[2939.49] Frank: Yeah, send fireworks to Jack at right until I fly.
[2943.49] Stephen: You send it, he lets it off indoors.
[2945.49] Stephen: That's the deal.
[2946.49] Frank: Yep.
[2947.49] Frank: If you can fit it through his letterbox, he will set fire to it.
[2951.49] Curry: I've got some flares in my garage from when I had a boat.
[2954.49] Curry: He let one of those off in his house.
[2956.49] Frank: That sounds like an excellent idea.
[2958.49] Frank: No.
[2959.49] Frank: You should definitely do that.
[2960.49] Frank: Can someone say phosphorus?
[2963.49] Jack: Mate, the whole box of...
[2968.49] Jack: What, flares?
[2971.49] Jack: No, no, the...
[2973.49] Jack: Fireworks?
[2975.49] Jack: Yeah, the old fireworks.
[2977.49] Jack: I can't remember how much you used to pay for them, Frank,
[2980.49] Jack: but I am shocked at the price.
[2983.49] Jack: Shocked.
[2985.49] Frank: We're going to have to re-mortgage the...
[2988.49] Frank: Let's turn out mansion.
[2990.49] Jack: Yeah, we're not doing too good.
[2992.49] Jack: I'll never sacrifice the mansion, guys.
[2994.49] Jack: Well, we fly.
[2995.49] Jack: Frank, I've sent you the link.
[2998.49] Jack: I think that is substantially more than what you used to pay.
[3001.49] Frank: Yeah, that's...
[3004.49] Frank: That is a good price, everyone.
[3007.49] Stephen: Right, over to Taobao, Frank.
[3009.49] Curry: All right, what we'll have to do is everyone buy a box of matches,
[3012.49] Curry: take the little heads off, and then we'll wrap them up in paper.
[3015.49] Stephen: Scrape the match heads off into tennis balls
[3018.49] Stephen: and send them to Brighton to Life Fly.
[3020.49] Stephen: Brighton.
[3025.49] Jack: No, that one.
[3026.49] Frank: Ten tennis balls, nine of them are full of match heads,
[3028.49] Frank: one of them is full of dog poo.
[3030.49] Stephen: Take your pick.
[3032.49] Stephen: I'm getting dog poo every time.
[3035.49] Stephen: Oh, sad information for our listeners.
[3038.49] Stephen: Apparently, the legendary dog poo bin of Andy R.C. has been removed.
[3044.49] Frank: No!
[3047.49] Jack: No, when did that happen?
[3050.49] Jack: How?
[3051.49] Stephen: I don't know.
[3052.49] Stephen: The council stole away this important landmark.
[3054.49] Stephen: I don't think they even noticed the sticker on it.
[3057.49] Frank: They replaced it with another one that's right next to Andy's house instead.
[3061.49] Stephen: Yeah.
[3065.41] Jack: I'm devastated.
[3067.41] Jack: I'm right into them instead.
[3070.41] Jack: I realise, don't look at me.
[3072.41] Curry: There was no consultation about the dog poo bin, it was just taken.
[3075.41] Jack: No, no.
[3076.41] Jack: It was a religious landmark.
[3078.41] Jack: Cultural landmark.
[3079.41] Jack: Yeah, that people would pilgrimage to.
[3082.41] Jack: Do they not understand?
[3083.41] Curry: Also, you could raise things like, well, where are the dogs going?
[3086.41] Curry: And clearly they don't s**t in the bin, but you pick it up and put it in the bin.
[3091.41] Curry: You don't pick up the dog and hold it over the bin, Kerry, that's...
[3094.41] Stephen: If it worked that way, it would be a lot easier.
[3097.41] Stephen: A lot easier.
[3098.41] Jack: You're not squeezing the dog hard enough.
[3101.41] Jack: It works like a sort of nerve gun.
[3105.41] Jack: Yeah.
[3107.41] Jack: Toothpaste.
[3109.41] Jack: Do you not understand how dogs work?
[3112.41] Curry: I thought I did, but now I'm not so sure.
[3115.41] Stephen: But not that convenient, mate.
[3117.41] Stephen: If they were, they'd be a lot more popular.
[3119.41] Jack: I have received the last two batteries I need for the full pack.
[3125.41] Jack: The flame copter.
[3127.41] Jack: Full parallel four series.
[3129.41] Jack: What's this?
[3130.41] Stephen: And now 4S4P.
[3132.41] Stephen: 4S4P will just average out the capacity.
[3135.41] Stephen: That's the theory there.
[3136.41] Stephen: Average out the cell health, average out the capacity.
[3139.41] Stephen: 4S4P, everyone's a winner.
[3141.41] Frank: OK.
[3143.41] Frank: What are you flying with this?
[3145.41] Jack: I don't know yet.
[3147.41] Jack: Someone needs the sacrificial quads.
[3149.41] Stephen: I think we should give you back the little spicy copter.
[3153.41] Stephen: The LDO mascot.
[3155.41] Stephen: Those orange props.
[3157.41] Jack: Yeah, maybe.
[3159.41] Jack: Right, come on.
[3161.41] Jack: See us out.
[3163.41] Jack: Thank you.
[3165.41] Frank: There's a curry arriving.
[3166.41] Stephen: There's a fork in it.
[3167.41] Stephen: It's done.
[3168.41] Stephen: Thank you to our wonderful Patreons.
[3170.41] Stephen: You have been joined by everyone's favourite, Curry Kitten.
[3174.41] Stephen: Bye.
[3175.41] Stephen: Our lord and master, Frank.
[3177.41] Stephen: That's me.
[3178.41] Stephen: Hello, bye.
[3179.41] Stephen: And the inimitable Brighton Till I Fly Jack.
[3182.41] Stephen: I don't know what that means, but thank you.
[3184.41] Stephen: And me, the man with the silly facial hair, Stephen.
[3189.41] Stephen: It's been great talking to you all.
[3190.41] Stephen: Have a lovely week.
[3191.41] Stephen: Catch you next time.
[3192.41] Stephen: Bye.
[3193.41] Jack: Bye.
[3194.41] Stephen: Bye.
[3195.41] Jack: Telemetry lost.